The Erik Sloan ethics thread

Jeff Edge wrote:4) So the question is: when exactly is it okay to add bolts to existing routes, and who gets to decide? (Clearly, it sometimes is generally accepted, for the examples Erik has pointed out above, that no one has contradicted him on. The question is when?

I suspect that, until we can achieve a consensus on this, we will continue to see climbers, like ES, who exploit this grey area in ethics. Unfortunately, I don't foresee a consensus happening anytime soon, although I sure would love to be wrong on this one.

In the end, it is the rock, our finite resource, that ultimately suffers the outcome of bolt wars. Perhaps we may try to fight our urge to chop bolts until a consensus is reached to minimize the potential hole count.

"I'll agree that it is strange that there is so much preoccupation about BOR than any of the other examples Erik mentioned."

I think there might be some confusion between people climbing a route and not knowing some hardware are retrobolts and people not caring about retrobolts.

Now I would like to add my opinion to what I think is the central question of this argument: "when is it okay to add bolts to existing routes, who gets to decide, and is it therefore acceptable in this case?"

To answer the first part of the question: It seems that most people look to two sources 1) a general consensus of people who climb in the area regularly and 2) a loose consensus of people considered "authorities" on the matter (e.g. the references to John Middendorf, etc)

So in this case it seems like rather than loudly vocalizing their opinions, the armchair climbers present (who seem to occupy a majority of the real estate on this forum) ought to be trying to figure out what people who actually live in Yosemite think (no one seems to be arguing for a universal ethic. Eldo, Yosemite, North Carolina all have different ethics and that's probably good).

The problem with the internet medium is that if you are a full-time dirtbag like me, you don't get on the internet and especially not the MP forums that often (I'm here now because I'm "home" for Christmas), and so, unsurprisingly, a seemingly very important demographic is largely absent from this discussion altogether. This doesn't mean the discussion can't happen here, but it does mean that "no one from the valley is here supporting you Erik" is not a valid argument (see numerous posts above on this page and the previous).

So I guess what we're looking for is a large number of relevant people to openly voice their opinions about what they think is okay, and to go from there.

I've lived in Yosemite full time for most of the last three years except winters, I've never worked at the same time so I've climbed a good amount and I don't consider that enough to speak about where there should or shouldn't be bolts.

So if you're one of those guys who's all like "Well I live in the bay and climbed 20 whole days in the valley this past year," you've got to realize how much more time Erik has spent climbing in the valley than you. And I'm not saying your opinion doesn't matter, I'm just asking you to consider that you might not fully understand the situation. If your immediate response is "no I know full well what its like, I climbed at church bowl once!" please reconsider! Think of how many days you've spent there, as many as Erik? What about times of the year? Have you been there when its crowded/empty/summer/fall/etc?

I haven't said, and won't say what I think about the bolts. What I'm asking is: have you fully considered your own experience as well as Erik's?

Obviously, some people have a comparable level of experience in the valley (e.g. Ammon posted above), but I would still be curious to know how much time you've spent at church bowl? That seems to be what this discussion is about (and if your response is: "well this is about climbing ethics in general!" please read my previous post).

Yo Gang,

CSProul - What is your full name and where do you live? Let me get this straight - you harangue me online, and now want me to hang out with you and show you how to replace bolts in Yosemite. Interesting approach. Why don't you ask Mike Ousely or Ammon McNeely to show you how to replace bolts? Oh, I see, they don't live near Yosemite or climb or hang out here much anymore. All good. I don't hold a grudge - come on down! My name is Erik Sloan and you can email me personally at erik@yosemitebigwall.com.

Along those lines - it sounds like Mike Ousley and Ammon McNeely have some pretty strong opinions that certain of my actions don't constitute climbing stewardship in Yosemite. Ok fair enough - why don't you guys say what climbing stewardship projects you've participated in - or how you became experts in that field?

As for everyone else on the thread - really, post up your stewardship successes, goals, or aspirations. Let's make this about paying it forward!

Along those lines I had the pleasure to help out a local map maker, who is making an incredible open-source map of all the yosemite climbing areas. Super, super cool to be a part of it, even if it meant crawling through icy boulder fields in the snow.

Woot Woot!
Erik
Yosemitebigwall.com

Jeff Edge wrote:the armchair climbers present (who seem to occupy a majority of the real estate on this forum) ought to be trying to figure out what people who actually live in Yosemite think (no one seems to be arguing for a universal ethic.

I suspect most of the people posting on this thread do actually climb and have climbed in Yosemite. The number of days you climb there, or whether you live there, doesn't determine "ownership" or ethics of your choosing.

I think your reference to "armchair climbers" is based on nothing, just like my guess that most people in this forum do climb.

Jeff Edge wrote: The problem with the internet medium is that if you are a full-time dirtbag like me, you don't get on the internet and especially not the MP forums that often (I'm here now because I'm "home" for Christmas), and so, unsurprisingly, a seemingly very important demographic is largely absent from this discussion altogether.

Reminds me of an election where the loser said they would have won if there had been a better turnout. As if he knew that the non-voters would have supported him.

Jeff Edge wrote: Think of how many days you've spent there, as many as Erik? What about times of the year? Have you been there when its crowded/empty/summer/fall/etc?

How does the number of days change one's ethics? (see above about "ownership").

Jeff Edge wrote:I haven't said, and won't say what I think about the bolts.

Why won't you stake out an opinion? According to you, your opinion is worth more than we armchair climbers.

I concede that the more time one spends at a given climbing area, the more sense of ownership that person has. But that doesn't give them carte blanche in that area, in my opinion, disregarding the majority. And since there is no formal method for determining the majority, basic ethics principles apply. For example, in general, don't retrobolt.

Oh, I see, they don't live near Yosemite or climb or hang out here much anymore. All good. I don't hold a grudge - come on down! My name is Erik Sloan and you can email me personally at erik@yosemitebigwall.com. Along those lines - it sounds like Mike Ousley and Ammon McNeely have some pretty strong opinions that certain of my actions don't constitute climbing stewardship in Yosemite. Ok fair enough - why don't you guys say what climbing stewardship projects you've participated in - or how you became experts in that field? As for everyone else on the thread - really, post up your stewardship successes, goals, or aspirations. Let's make this about paying it forward! Along those lines I had the pleasure to help out a local map maker, who is making an incredible open-source map of all the yosemite climbing areas. Super, super cool to be a part of it, even if it meant crawling through icy boulder fields in the snow. Woot Woot! Erik Yosemitebigwall.com

WHO THE F#*K ARE YOU?

You expect people to buy a book with an ass hat for the author?

Take your stewardship and shove it! I'll prove nothing to the person who is supposed to be showing integrity.

Eric, do your self a favor and never respond to this thread again without the utmost respect for the names you casually throw around and bash.

Do you have any legs to stand on when it comes to ethics and history and the people you reference? If so...... respond.

You are starting to get an online Martin shkreli complex... and nobody likes Martin!

Full Definition of stewardship
1
: the office, duties, and obligations of a steward
2
: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something; especially : the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one's care

I just checked definition of "stewardship" on the web.
Erik, why do you think that anyone need your stewardship? just go and climb for yourself. Everyone will be happier and climbers will treat you better

jon vandub wrote: WHO THE F#*K ARE YOU? You expect people to buy a book with an ass hat for the author? Take your stewardship and shove it!

hahahaha. His book is gonna be popular, don't worry. It caters to the people that need a mid way anchor on an established free climb to practice lower outs. Truth is that the huge majority of climbers in Yosemite are like that. There is nothing wrong with being a noob! But noobs make up a big majority right? So it makes sense to target them as the source of revenue. If his book was done for people like Aamon and Mark Hudon, it would not be a very profitable product. Did the supertopo valley select become popular? Hell yea! How many use the Reeds in comparison? A tiny fraction...
Target noobs and not only will you make a profit, they will support the mid way anchors, added bolts, replacing copperheads with 3/8inchers, they will also hero-worship you and accept ALL the 'stewardship' that you offer! F×ck yeah Erik! Woot!!

What do you expect from a guy that brags about never climbing at the Cookie Cliff in the big wall guide...sickening.

SirTobyThe3rd wrote: What do you expect from a guy that brags about never climbing at the Cookie Cliff in the big wall guide...sickening.

four weeks ago I was walking down from Cookie and met the guy walking up. He was looking like Sloan at his picture profile in MP. I was thinking I was hallucinating [At this time I was posting at those treads and see Sloan's photo everyday }

Actually Mike Ousley(Mike.) - I think the fact that you have climbed here for decades and never participated in any stewardship projects reflects that you might be a poor decider of who a steward is, or isn't. How about Ammon or Alexey - have either of you guys participated in stewardship projects in Yosemite?

I had some insights that might help us all heal around this thread: It seems you guys are obsessing about a few things that I have done that are in the grey area of climbing ethics, and are really worked up about it and want to talk endlessly about those things. That doesn't seem like a healthy approach to life. In my experience there are always a couple things that other people do that I don't agree with, and I appreciate that there is someone else who thinks that that those things are the coolest things ever, so I accept the differences in others as positives.

Do you think ranting online is going to change anyone's opinion? I respect everyone's opinion. I take what everyone says to heart, and try my best. I'm sure you all do the same.

Even if I disagree with Tommy Caldwell about adding bolts midpitch to the Reticent Wall or Adrift, I wouldn't go online and call Tommy out on it. If I climb the Reticent I don't have to clip those bolts.

There will always be grey areas in every ethical debate, from gun control to bolting. Let's come together about Yosemite!

What are people psyched for in Yosemite for 2016?

Woot Woot!
Erik
Yosemitebigwall.com

Hey Alexey,

I don't remember meeting you at the Cookie. I may have been there, but doubt it. One of my co-authors drew that topo(I worked a photoshoot there in April, which was the first time I ever went to the Cookie, haha).

Alexey and everyone: Post up your name and a photo of yourself. I look forward to seeing you in Yosemite this year!

Here's me with the 42" bolt cutters replacing the chains on the first four of the Nose and down from Sickle.

Woot Woot!
Erik
Yosemitebigwall.com

Erik Sloan wrote:Anyone who says there is no grey area in climber ethics is just being silly.

Erik, I didn't say there are no grey areas in climbing ethics - I said there are no grey areas around what constitutes retrobolting or not - i.e. there's no way to inadvertantly retrobolt or retrobolt by mistake - retrobolting is a deliberate decision and choice.

Also, in the same way you confuse advancing climbing standards with manufactured access, you also seem to seriously confuse and conflate 'stewardship' with rebolting such that you feel completely ok with rolling deliberate retrobolting into the mix under that rubric.

That you constructively rebolt is definitely an aspect of 'stewardship'; your retrobolting for manufactured access is definitively NOT an act of 'stewardship', but rather the exact opposite of it - an act of vandalism plain and simple.

Definition of stewardship

1: the office, duties, and obligations of a steward
2: the conducting, supervising, or managing of something; especially : the careful and responsible management of something entrusted to one's care - i.e. stewardship of natural resources

And calling out Ammon on stewardship? Dude, incredibly weak and just makes you sound like an idiot. Ammon has done more to advance aid climbing standards than just about anyone in recent times. But then, hey, maybe it's a case of "those who can, do; those who can't, steward".

Damn this thread is going nowhere quick, its reminding me of an argument about religion at this point. The same shit over and over again, "I'm right, you're wrong" has been repeated so many times its starting to make me wonder if there hasn't been a book written by the great spaghetti monster in the sky on climbing ethics(or is this book available on supertaco?)

^^^. Stop reading it.

Erik Sloan wrote:Yo Gang, CSProul - What is your full name and where do you live? Let me get this straight - you harangue me online, and now want me to hang out with you and show you how to replace bolts in Yosemite. Interesting approach. Why don't you ask Mike Ousely or Ammon McNeely to show you how to replace bolts? Oh, I see, they don't live near Yosemite or climb or hang out here much anymore. All good. I don't hold a grudge - come on down! My name is Erik Sloan and you can email me personally at erik@yosemitebigwall.com. Along those lines - it sounds like Mike Ousley and Ammon McNeely have some pretty strong opinions that certain of my actions don't constitute climbing stewardship in Yosemite. Ok fair enough - why don't you guys say what climbing stewardship projects you've participated in - or how you became experts in that field? As for everyone else on the thread - really, post up your stewardship successes, goals, or aspirations. Let's make this about paying it forward! Along those lines I had the pleasure to help out a local map maker, who is making an incredible open-source map of all the yosemite climbing areas. Super, super cool to be a part of it, even if it meant crawling through icy boulder fields in the snow. Woot Woot! Erik Yosemitebigwall.com

It really has nothing to do with wanting to be your buddy or have you "teach" me anything. Just showing that I'm willing to give some benefit of the doubt and perform some "stewardship" in Yosemite with you if you'll just publicly admit to one "grey area" mistake. Seems reasonable to me. If not, I'm quite capable of finding some other way to focus my efforts that doesn't involve you.

Yo Healje:

"And calling out Ammon on stewardship? Dude, incredibly weak and just makes you sound like an idiot. Ammon has done more to advance aid climbing standards than just about anyone in recent times. But then, hey, maybe it's a case of "those who can, do; those who can't, steward".

Really? How did he do that? Ammon and I are friends. I don't have any problem telling him he could be more involved with community issues in Yosemite. He did after all contribute the YCA losing it's most potent program, the Ask A Climber program.

Mike Ousely - in the end you just look like someone who is unwilling to get involved, but who wants to sit back and direct any efforts made in your community. That's not the way community involvement works. People do their best. Sometimes it is later deemed to be not the perfect solution to a challenge. No worries, everything done in good faith brings people together.

So wait - the guy who has still not been identified who added a route that climbs into the middle of the first pitch of Paradise Lost, a 5.9 pitch on Middle Cathedral, does not warrant a internet witch hunt. But me, who volunteer doing tons of things that you guys say that you love(except you Mike Ousely, we know you love nothing, haha), says I added an anchor in the middle of a pitch right by the road to help folks practice aid climbing and you're all crazy about it.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that drives people away from the Yosemite climbing community. It's time to stop with all the vitrol and negativity. When pioneers like Jerry Anderson are reading this and emailing me to say that threads like this are the exact reason that he doesn't even want to Climb in Yosemite anymore - you know we've got a problem.

We need to be tolerant of each other. For sure when folks are out putting up routes, replacing bolts on routes, etc. they might decide that they should change something that was not done right the first time. Heck Tom Frost taught me that the first time I met him after Chris Mac and I started the ASCA.

CSProul - really, post up your name and where you're from, if you're a real person and not just one of Mike Ousely's trolls(since Alexey has been accusing people of being my troll, which is comical because I tell folks all day long in the Valley to not bother posting on this thread, until it starts getting about something positive).

Keep it classy guys.

Woot Woot!
Erik
Yosemitebigwall.com

Alexey wrote: four weeks ago I was walking down from Cookie and met the guy walking up. He was looking like Sloan at his picture profile in MP. I was thinking I was hallucinating [At this time I was posting at those treads and see Sloan's photo everyday }

Did you check if crack a go go get 5 new bolts? Or maybe wheat thin had a midway anchor so that a noob could practice pendulums into butterballs?!

"When pioneers like Jerry Anderson are reading this and emailing me to say that threads like this are the exact reason that he doesn't even want to Climb in Yosemite anymore - you know we've got a problem. "

Sounds like his personal problem. I don't want to deal with a circus, so I stay away from the bridge, or any sort of scene. There is much more to the Valley than internet drama that is blown out of the proportion.

As I said before, you do a ton of good stuff Erik, but changing routes that are not yours, is unnecessary. There are other ways to practice lower outs. There is a way to get a rope for the swing, without starting a thread on supertopo, which is monitored by the ranger nation. There is a way to get stuff done without coming across as a parasite. All these people are not negative assholes, like you paint them to be. They have a problem because by doing good, you lost common respect and gained an entitled attitude. Maybe I am wrong, and they are a bunch of negative assholes, but here are my two cents. All I know is that I exist, everything else could be interpreted in many ways...

-Vitaliy
(If you click on my profile, there is a link to my blog with heaps of photos of my face. Facebook works too! Woot!)

Erik Sloan wrote: Let's come together about Yosemite! What are people psyched for in Yosemite for 2016?

We've done that, Eric, but you don't show up.

Erik Sloan wrote: What are people psyched for in Yosemite for 2016?

Better ethics.

Erik Sloan wrote: That's not the way community involvement works.

Ohhh... the irony! (Part I)

Erik Sloan wrote: So wait - the guy who has still not been identified who added a route that climbs into the middle of the first pitch of Paradise Lost, a 5.9 pitch on Middle Cathedral, does not warrant a internet witch hunt.

Tell us who dunnit and we're all over them.
Meanwhile, your the guy pointing out that other people mess up too. Yes, they do. But it doesn't make you right.

Erik Sloan wrote:CSProul - really, post up your name and where you're from, if you're a real person and not just one of Mike Ousely's trolls(since Alexey has been accusing people of being my troll, which is comical because I tell folks all day long in the Valley to not bother posting on this thread, until it starts getting about something positive).

So let me make sure I got this right. CSProul is not a real person posting here? But your imaginary friends who don't post here - we need to take them at your word?

Part of me does believe that you hang around people telling the same thing "all day long."

Dude, do you have a diagnosed social disorder?

Speaking of "community" (and since Sloan started this whole misdirection bit about "what have you done"):

Erik Sloan MP stats: Areas contributed = 0, Routes contributed = 0, Page Improvements = 0. The overwhelming majority of your MP presence consists of attempts to pimp your guidebook.

You willingly ignore the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the climbing community. When confronted, you misdirect, obfuscate, throw out logical fallacies, and generally behave like a petulant child. It's strangely compelling to watch, maybe because it's not everyday I get to see a full-blown mental case.