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Battle of the states! Help!

The Fat Kid · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 10
Andrew Gram wrote: The Denver burbs may have better schools, but the more tech related jobs thing is not the case. At best its a wash, but there are huge numbers of tech related jobs in SLC and shortages in nearly every skill set. One positive LDS influence is that even the tech companies are very family friendly here. I'm a Java developer, and I essentially never work more than 40 hours a week, and that isn't unusual here.
My wife manages an analytics team, so sort of a different area; there were a lot more jobs listed for Denver (DTC) than SLC for someone with her background.

SLC could certainly be better for developers.
SMarsh · · NY, NY · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 37

What Fat Kid said.

That is, if your wife has any hopes of a professional career once the kids are growing or grown, then SLC is not the destination of choice. There are a few companies in the SLC area that are large and diverse (including American Express), but I'm not sure what jobs they have or how the managerial ranks compare to NYC.

My career was supported by the fact that NYC has managerial jobs for women (and minorities), and diversity is encouraged.

Bellingham and Denver certainly would be better from that perspective.

Nomadinthevertical Sapp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 5

Thanks all. Some great things to think about. I am currently in D.C. so any of these options will be an improvement! Right now its a 3hr drive to Seneca for the closest multipitch.

Basically, we are looking for a place to settle down for the twins to start elementary school. The on-going plan is to transfer locations before the kids start middle school and stay put till they graduate high school (unless were totally enamored with the place) which may happen!

Bellingham seems like the ideal location if I was looking just for myself. I have climbed in WA and Canada and there is no place like it! I have not been in the PNW for the dreary season and dont think I would mind the misty weather but it's not just about me anymore :) With little ones in tow, especially at this young of an age, accessibility is key. Denver and SLC seem to be a better options at this point in time. Especially since they want to adventure too!

Nomadinthevertical Sapp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2015 · Points: 5
Andrew Gram wrote:The winter inversions are definitely a bummer and something to think about carefully.
Does anyone have perspective on how bad these inversions get/how long they typically last? Google gives me lots of contradicting answers.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
Nomadinthevertical wrote: Does anyone have perspective on how bad these inversions get/how long they typically last? Google gives me lots of contradicting answers.
its bad, this is from 20 years of experience. it gets so bad you cannot see the mountains that are a mile away.
Anson Call · · Reno, NV · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 45
Nomadinthevertical wrote: Does anyone have perspective on how bad these inversions get/how long they typically last? Google gives me lots of contradicting answers.
One more opinion on the inversions. Rob T's description is pretty accurate, but I'd say a BAD inversion can be over 2 weeks. I forget what year it was, maybe 2011 or 2012, we were pretty much inverted for most of December and a good chunk of January. I don't keep track, but it feels like maybe 7-10 days per month you can have inversions (in the winter months). The air gets bad enough that you wouldn't want to go for a run or a bike ride outside.

Inversions don't just mean bad air quality - they also mean bitter cold temperatures and no fresh snow. Everyone's car gets covered in road salt, top to bottom. Things start to look like 1890's London - covered in soot (only slightly exaggerating).

The ONLY way to survive a long inversion is to frequently escape to the mountains.

Inversions are, by far, SLC's biggest downside. Everyone hates them with a passion, yet everyone still insists on driving their Range Rover all the way across town on their daily commute. I don't get it.
David Wieder · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined May 2014 · Points: 61

My 2 cents:

I just moved to SLC from Boulder. I've also lived in Salt Lake a number of other times.

Denver is a much cooler city, hands down. It is way more diverse, liberal, and just has a lot more going on. But it is not as good a location for outdoor access at all. You're looking at a 2 hour drive to ski resorts when it's dry, maybe like 5 (each way) on a wet road with weekend traffic. The climbing is, realistically, an hour or more away - but there is lot's of it, maybe better for multipitch trad.

SLC, proper, is not bad for the 4 corners in terms of diversity. There are enough street tacos and asian grocery stores, but it is still 50% LDS (mormon). And it's important to realize that SLC is a small area surrounded by endless sprawl, which is very heavily LDS and conservative. The upside to this it is that it is very family oriented and safe, the downside is a mcmansion suburban hell. But there is quick access to world class skiing (if it ever snows again with global warming). I live downtown and it takes 20 minutes (on a dry freeway) to get to the mouth of the canyons, where the climbing is. It's another 20 minutes to get up the canyon to skiing. And if you happen to paraglide, SLC is where it's at. I don't ice climb but I'm pretty sure SLC is better than the Colorado front range when it comes to ice (They are both "the front range"). The inversions are nasty, it will look like you're back on the east coast with gray snow on the sides of the road. That doesn't happen in Denver.

I'm from Santa Fe and the biggest issue for me with Denver/Boulder is the distance to the desert. Denver is 5.5 hours from Moab, SLC is 3.5 hours, and then there is the whole rest of Utah, which is really the most unique place in the US.

I would never consider living in the northwest, for lot's of reasons, sorry

Joe Virtanen · · Charlotte, NC · Joined May 2010 · Points: 241
reboot wrote: It's also not that much further from the RDU area, same thing for the red... If you are heading westward, being in Charlotte saves you about 1.5 hrs one way, which is nice, but not a huge game changer. On the other hand, there are more high tech jobs around RDU, the gyms are way better/modern & if you have kids, the schools are better, especially the closer to college age they are.
You're right, difference to the New is about an hour, not a huge deal. Travel time to the Red is pretty much the same for CLT and RDU.

I'd completely disagree about 1.5 hours not being a game changer, though, for travel West. CLT to most NC mountain crags is 2-2.5hrs. From RDU you're looking at 4.5 to places like Looking Glass, 4 to Linville Gorge. 2-2.5hrs vs. 4-4.5 hours is the difference between a comfortable day trip and having to do a weekend excursion.

As David B mentioned, a brand new gym just opened in central Charlotte.

Sure on paper Raleigh is a great place to live, but your comfortable day trip options are extremely limited for climbing vs. AVL or CLT. With CLT and Raleigh both being in the Top 10 of America's fastest growing cities, your job prospects etc. are pretty good in either one.
tim naylor · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2004 · Points: 370

i lived in sandy for four years, great outdoor opportunities. i never experienced religious discrimination, except for trying to rent a house. My daughter on the other hand was being told regularly by several different kids that she was going to hell for not being mormon. She wasn't even in kindergarten yet! We are pretty agnostic so this was a little hard to explain to a toddler. This was in the late 90's.

tim naylor · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2004 · Points: 370

We moved because of it.

Jim Fox · · Westminster, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 50

Denver/Boulder/Colorado front range is a great place but has gotten very crowded over the past few years. Denver area population supposedly incresaed by 200K people over past year (some say because of legal pot but IDK?). Rent is ridiculous due to increased demand and property values are climbing (my house increased in value by about 30% in past 2 years).
Ski resorts are often crowded and traffic getting there and back can be crazy.
You can find places to climb that aren't crowded but the more popular crags can be really busy during peak times.
Still a great place to live and not as congested as many Eastern cities.

fossana · · leeds, ut · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 13,318
tim naylor wrote:i lived in sandy for four years, great outdoor opportunities. i never experienced religious discrimination, except for trying to rent a house. My daughter on the other hand was being told regularly by several different kids that she was going to hell for not being mormon. She wasn't even in kindergarten yet! We are pretty agnostic so this was a little hard to explain to a toddler. This was in the late 90's.
As an atheist I went to BYU for a year for grad school in Botany (mid-90s) and lived in Provo. People were more curious about what it was like to not be LDS. Once in a while someone would try and invite me to some ward event and there was a campus dress code, but it wasn't a big deal. I left b/c of an a-hole major professor (not uncommon anywhere) and b/c I decided to switch to public health, not b/c I found the community oppressive.
Gavin W · · NW WA · Joined Feb 2015 · Points: 181

Bellingham has plenty of options for kids, and would be my choice for a family town. Plenty of easily accessible hiking, Boulevard park is a great place to hang out, access to the bay if your into SUP, and Mt. Baker is really close. For climbing, Squamish is close enough to make a weekend trip more than reasonable, plus you have access to the Cascades. And the rain isn't as bad as people make it out to be: as long as your kids have a good rain jacket and a pair of rubber boots, they'll be happy.

C Runyan · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 300

Other folks have raised schooling for your children as a pertinent factor in your decision. Just to add a little more detail to that discussion, consider that Utah ranks dead last in the entire country on spending per student on education.

The average state spends $10,700 per year per student; that number is $6,555 in Utah.

Austin Baird · · SLC, Utah · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 95
C Runyan wrote:Other folks have raised schooling for your children as a pertinent factor in your decision. Just to add a little more detail to that discussion, consider that Utah ranks dead last in the entire country on spending per student on education. The average state spends $10,700 per year per student; that number is $6,555 in Utah.
You can't expect us to spend money on education when we're busy spending all of it suing the federal government to give us all the public land so we can sell it to oil developers.
Leslie H · · Keystone · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 415

The average state spends $10,700 per year per student; that number is [[$6,555 in Utah.]

Not sure that per pupil spending necessarily correlates to good schools. In fact as a teacher, I'd prefer Utah schools over those in CO. Smaller class sizes as well as better teacher training.

Dahly · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 0

I figured I might add my 2 cents as far as the kid aspect in Utah goes. I was born out East, but grew up since I was 7ish. As far as Mormons go, they are really nice people, and I never had an issue with them trying to convert me or "telling me I'm going to hell." Not saying they won't try, but you tell them you aren't interested and they are respectful.

Sandy and Draper are both burbs of SLC, and are much less Mormon. Downtown itself is actually fairly liberal, and almost has a counter-Mormon feel to it (might have to do with I'm in college).

As far as schools go, a lot of the public schools are crowded and pretty bad, especially middle school, and a lot are pretty nice. Only went for a few years, before moving to private. It depends on the school. Highland, Corner Canyon, Jordan are all really nice and good schools, whereas West and Midvale are a little more shitty.

Also, boy scouts are pretty off-limits unless you are Mormon, as most are run through the wards.

C Runyan · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 300
Leslie McG wrote:Not sure that per pupil spending necessarily correlates to good schools. In fact as a teacher, I'd prefer Utah schools over those in CO. Smaller class sizes as well as better teacher training.
That's an interesting claim. Why would there be a correlation between quality of education and the amount we spend on it? Hmmmm.

Here's another fact check:

Average public school class size according to the U.S. Dept. of Education(elementary school level):

Colorado: 21.2
Washington: 23.3
Utah: 24.2
DanielRich · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 5
C Runyan wrote: That's an interesting claim. Why would there be a correlation between quality of education and the amount we spend on it? Hmmmm. Here's another fact check: Average public school class size according to the U.S. Dept. of Education(elementary school level): Colorado: 21.2 Washington: 23.3 Utah: 24.2
Hey now that is a little disingenuous you looked up those facts and failed to mention that at the same location for secondary school level you see

utah 16.2
co 17.7
wa 30.8

Your facts are correct but you also seem to be picking them to match the case you want to make.

edit: add link
nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/ta…
C Runyan · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 300
DanielRich wrote: Hey now that is a little disingenuous you looked up those facts and failed to mention that at the same location for secondary school level you see utah 16.2 co 17.7 wa 30.8 Your facts are correct but you also seem to be picking them to match the case you want to make. edit: add link nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/ta…
Oh my, talk about being disingenuous (or just plain unable to read a chart)?
The numbers you cite have this note by them:
! Interpret data with caution. The standard error for this estimate is equal to 30 percent or more of the estimate's value.

Even more damning: if you read the fine print, you learn that the column you cite ("teachers in self-contained classrooms") applies to only 1% of secondary teachers/classrooms.

To give a more representative sample size, you should have cited the neighboring "departmental instruction" column, as the vast majority of students in this survey in secondary school attend classes throughout the day with different teachers according to subject. Now, looking at that column instead, we learn the average class sizes for secondary schools actually break down like this:

Colorado: 23.7
Washington: 25.5
Utah: 29
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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