What is a standard alpine rack?

Out of curiosity I have looked at a few alpine routes and under their protection is says to bring a standard alpine rack see here,

mountainproject.com/v/north…

I was wondering, what does a standard alpine rack consist of? Passive pro? Ice screws? What exactly are we talking about here?

There are just too many variables to give you a solid answer. It is so route/condition dependent.

That's going to depend significantly on what you're climbing, what season it is, and how hard you're willing to push it with risk.

For a summer rock route with a pitch or two up to 5.7 and otherwise generally 4th class scrambling, you'd probably see a set of nuts, a single set of cams, maybe a hex or two instead of some larger cams, and a half dozen dyneema runners as somewhat "standard." I'd guess for the route you've linked, you'd see something like this.

For the Diamond in Colorado or Lone Peak in Utah, where there is more technical, vertical rock in an alpine setting, a double rack of cams and 10 or so runners might be "standard."

For a glacier route in the Cascades with some rock bands or a summit pyramid (like Mount Shuksan), a couple pickets, 4 or 5 screws, 3 or 4 cams, nuts, and a few runners might do the trick.

For the something like Bird Brain Boulevard in Ouray, you might be looking at some pitons, an assortment of screws, and a set of cams, plus runners.

It really all depends on the terrain you expect to encounter and how much you're willing to operate on long run-outs and anchors that involve placing less than 3 pieces of gear. The less willing you are to do those things, the more pro you need. Pitch length also matters. If pitches are only going to be 60 or 80 feet, you need less gear than 180 foot rope stretchers.

An alpine rack usually means a small rack of passive and active pro focusing on saving weight. For example I carry doubles of .5 and .75 everyday plus a 10.2mm rope. My alpine rack would consist of single cams and a set of hexes to save weight. I would also choose my Bluewater Icon 9.1mm 70M or double ropes if the route beta called for doubles.

Friends call my draws "alpine draws" because of the WC Helium biners I use. Again weight savings

Usually it means "slightly less than you would normally carry". A common alpine rock rack might be a single set of cams to 2" or 2.5", a set of nuts, lots 60cm draws and a few 120-cm draws. Add to this all the belay/anchor crap you normally carry, e.g. lockers, prusiks, belay devices, nut tool(s).

Unless there is a grade given other than a YDS grade, don't bring things you wouldn't place on any other multipitch rock route.

Sometimes people bring pitons when the rock is particularly fractured, e.g. in the Bugaboos.

Thank you all for the answering this sporty climber's query. To Bill and Todd, I would venture that if we are focusing on carrying less pro that we are therefore placing less pro correct? Of course this is dependent on the route's difficulty and the comfort level of the climber but I am speaking in general terms.

Stephenmontgomery wrote:To Bill and Todd, I would venture that if we are focusing on carrying less pro that we are therefore placing less pro correct? Of course this is dependent on the route's difficulty and the comfort level of the climber but I am speaking in general terms.

Yup.

You should consider when lighter may not mean faster.

For example, if you aren't fast at placing hexes then it may be faster to carry cams in their place because you can just place and go. The whole "fast and light" concept is in place because you need to move quickly to stay safe in the alpine. Sometime that means less weight, sometimes that means having the right gear to make you faster on the climb.

BoulderCharles wrote:You should consider when lighter may not mean faster. For example, if you aren't fast at placing hexes then it may be faster to carry cams in their place because you can just place and go. The whole "fast and light" concept is in place because you need to move quickly to stay safe in the alpine. Sometime that means less weight, sometimes that means having the right gear to make you faster on the climb.

Sometimes it might even mean getting stronger and in better shape so you can carry more of a rack.

Marc801 wrote: Sometimes it might even mean getting stronger and in better shape so you can carry more of a rack.

So that you can place more gear and climb faster as a result?

You may place less pro, but you also may climb shorter pitches.

i consider an alpine rack:
> .2 - 3 (4 or larger if called for)
> single set of nuts
> 12 alpine draws
> 2 120 cm slings
> a short cordelette for bailing or leaving behind (possible a rap ring or couple
beater biners to bail from
> creativity to do more with less...

YMMV

D-Roc wrote:i consider an alpine rack: > .2 - 3 (4 or larger if called for) > single set of nuts > 12 alpine draws > 2 120 cm slings > a short cordelette for bailing or leaving behind (possible a rap ring or couple beater biners to bail from > creativity to do more with less... YMMV

That is considered a full rack elsewhere in the world :)

4 or 5 24" spectra runners
2 48" spectra runners
2 Alpine equalizers,or tech cord cordeletes
3/4" tied sling with rap ring (bailout sling)
12-15 ultralight carabiners
Alpine harness with 2 HMS carabiners ascenders
2 8mm twin ropes
Crampons, Ushuaia titanium ice axe straight shaft ice tools

Snow routes
4 Yates cable pickets
2 HB deadmen
Shovel

Ice/ mixed
Rack of titanium pitons
6 ice screws

Rock routes
1 set of stoppers
4 Tri cams
4-6 cams

Those cable Snow stakes are horrible, dangerous, hopeless things to use. What say the cable is at the top of the stake and you want to do an upright mid clip? Then what happens if the cable is in the middle of the stake and you want to do an upright top clip? What happens when you are carrying your stakes on your harness and the cable slips out and dangles around your feet?

I thought people stopped using those things in the 80s. They are dangerous enough to carry around as it is, without having to worry about a stupid cable that you can not detach.

Don't ever listen to what anybody says on the internet. It is almost like these people want you to trip over half way up a 50 degree slope.

Also, deadman anchors got taken out of the instruction manuals years ago. Too dangerous. If you can still buy one make sure that you don't use it.

Also if you can use the T shapes Snow Stakes rather than the V shaped ones. They are easier to put in and take out.

References from experienced alpine climbers:

• https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/News/2014-10-22/What-s-in-Colin-Haley-s-Pack-#.WI8F29J95hE
• http://cascadeclimbers.com/articles/colin-haley-alpinism-equipment-for-alpinism-in-the-greater-ranges/colin-haley-alpinism-hardware-part-one/
• https://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/winter_rack
• http://www.alpineinstitute.com/articles/expert-tips/how-to-select-an-alpine-rack/
• https://books.google.kz/books?id=DHYSEvCp2e8C&pg=PA184&lpg=PA184&dq=mark+twight+alpine+rack&source=bl&ots=OqVAr2u09P&sig=azxW6ySsxwVFVqC_fehUb3sjf0Q&hl=kk&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiInvbsx-nRAhVFIJoKHZ89B20Q6AEIVTAI#v=onepage&q&f=false

John John wrote: Don't ever listen to what anybody says on the internet.

IT'S A PARADOX!

John John wrote:Those cable Snow stakes are horrible, dangerous, hopeless things to use. What say the cable is at the top of the stake and you want to do an upright mid clip?

The pickets on the market of which I'm aware that have cables have them in the middle. In which case, upright mid-clip works very well (since the cable is already in that position).

John John wrote:Then what happens if the cable is in the middle of the stake and you want to do an upright top clip?

The Yates pickets mentioned above use a v-shaped cross section, so the cable can neatly stay upright inside the v, allowing you to hammer it in at the desired angle to the top clip, then top clip with a sling. Given the reduction in holding power in this configuration, it's a less common use if you have the option to mid-clip.

John John wrote:What happens when you are carrying your stakes on your harness and the cable slips out and dangles around your feet?

This is easily avoided by wrapping the cable securely around the picket and then clipping it to any of the holes in the picket. You'll need that biner to clip it as pro anyway, and often can use that same biner for racking it on your harness.

John John wrote:I thought people stopped using those things in the 80s. They are dangerous enough to carry around as it is, without having to worry about a stupid cable that you can not detach.

The limited data available on snow anchors indicates that upright mid-clip cable pickets with a v-shaped cross-section are probably the best option for a general purpose, rapidly constructed snow anchor, though T-trenches pretty much always win when it comes to strength. See this for a decent summary (though much more research exists):

arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-sc…

John John wrote:Don't ever listen to what anybody says on the internet.

Ironic, no?

John John wrote:It is almost like these people want you to trip over half way up a 50 degree slope.

As noted above, tripping is easily avoided with good racking.

John John wrote:Also, deadman anchors got taken out of the instruction manuals years ago. Too dangerous. If you can still buy one make sure that you don't use it.

Sound advice. But a deadman aka T-trench/T-slot anchor constructed from a picket, axe, or ski(s) is often the strongest anchoring option available on snow.

John John wrote:Also if you can use the T shapes Snow Stakes rather than the V shaped ones. They are easier to put in and take out.

While perhaps easier to place and remove, they are also weaker. See link above.

Regarding the cabled stakes, what is the benefit to using them over just using a standard T stake with a sling? The cables seem much less versatile and tend to be annoying when racked.

@chriscc:

Cables facilitate an upright mid-clip configuration and are stronger than a sling when used in this capacity (not to mention stronger than a top-clip); this has more to do with the picket itself than the cable or the sling. Notably, the clip holes in a T-shape picket tend to explode.

While they can be a bit funky to rack, the cable prevents needing a sling in the first place. If you're carrying a monster load of pickets for some reason, I can see where this becomes onerous. But if you're rocking out with a typical 2 picket system, it can actually be really convenient.

Derek DeBruin wrote:@chriscc: Cables facilitate an upright mid-clip configuration and are stronger than a sling when used in this capacity (not to mention stronger than a top-clip); this has more to do with the picket itself than the cable or the sling. Notably, the clip holes in a T-shape picket tend to explode. While they can be a bit funky to rack, the cable prevents needing a sling in the first place. If you're carrying a monster load of pickets for some reason, I can see where this becomes onerous. But if you're rocking out with a typical 2 picket system, it can actually be really convenient.

Unless it is hard Snow and you need to do upright top clips all day long. Upright mid clips take twice as long to place and take out. In hard snow that equals 'nightmare'. The cable is stronger? How many Kns are you pulling on your Snow Stakes?

Cables are also heavy. I have had a few of these, but wish I had never had them.

You also can not make the cable on them longer or shorter, so it cuts their usage ability in half basically.

You can't set up a quick belay station with them. Single Stake with a short Sling and sit on the stake style belay.

If you only have two Stakes and you need to back up a T-Slot, you can not simply thread it through the cord in the front or the back of the T-Slotted Stake.

If you are using it for a runner, you can not simply bang it in, clip a draw to it and climb on.

It is not ideal if you are doing a Crevasse extraction and you need Snow Stakes to stabilize a buried pack, due to all the cable.

Also, not ideal if you need to bang it into some rock for an anchor as the cable just gets in the way.

As for the racking, it takes a long enough time to rack them with out a silly cable that you have to fold up and clip this and that.

Time is safety in the Mountains, and something like that can cost you extra hours on a long route.

Lets Compare a pitch.

Unravel the cable and dig in an upright mid clip for a belay- approximately 3 minutes.

Hit in an up right top clip - Bang bang clip, under a minute.

Put in a runner - Unravel the cable and dig in an upright mid clip - Approximately 3 minutes.

Hit in an up right top clip - Bang bang clip, under a minute.

Unravel the cable and dig in an upright mid clip for a belay- approximately 3 minutes.

Take the belay out, roll up the cable and clip to your Harness - approximately 3 minutes.

Pull out a top clip and clip onto harness - 5 seconds.

Take out runner, roll up the cable and clip to your Harness - approximately 3 minutes.

Pull out a top clip and clip onto harness - 5 seconds.

So probably around two minutes or so for the Blank Stake.

and around 15 at the least for the Pre Slung Stake.

Ect ect ect.......