Mountain Project Logo

Ropes question.

Original Post
Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247

Hello guys, what exactly means # of fall in a rope? Some say 7, so I can only fall 7 times ? That will be a bit expensive for me, I fall 7 times in 5 minutes..

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Walter Galli wrote:Hello guys, what exactly means # of fall in a rope? Some say 7, so I can only fall 7 times ? That will be a bit expensive for me, I fall 7 times in 5 minutes..
For all practical purposes it doesn't mean anything. The # of falls is the number of UIAA test falls that the rope can hold. You can google UIAA test fall to find out more about it if you are interested, but just understand that it is much, much, much, much harsher than any fall you could ever take in the real world. Fall on your rope all you want, retire the rope due to wear, not due to number of falls.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Dylan B. wrote:What does "can hold," mean? Is it the number of UIAA test falls the rope "can hold" before...breaking? Before the maximum impact force starts to increase? Before it looses some unspecified or specified amount of elasticity? What?
before it breaks.
Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247

Ok I'm cool now... Thanks to all.. Cheers

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
Jake Jones wrote: "Can hold" means exactly that. The rope doesn't break.
Incorrect. The UIAA Fall Rating test is absolutely to failure or breakage. When is says 7 Falls it means the rope survived 7 UIAA falls but on the 8th Drop, the rope BROKE.

As has been discussed before on MtnProj, the rating is a bit confusing as it is not the only indicator of a ropes durability etc. BUT, it does give one insight into how a rope is constructed and intended to be used.

e.g. Two ropes of comparable size (60g/m say) - #1 is rated to 7 Falls, #2 is rated to 11 Falls. Rope #1 likely has higher impact forces and more sheath % so it's better at abrasion resistance. #2 like has lower impact forces and less sheath % so it's designed to take larger falls but won't hold up as well to abrasion etc.
mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885
Jake Jones wrote: That's precisely what I meant. "CAN HOLD 7 UIAA FALLS" means just that. It didn't break on the 7th fall. It DID break on the 8th. Not sure where the confusion is coming from.
Confusion comes from you stating- "The Rope Doesn't Break". As you noted above, it does.
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
Swwwweeettttt!!

Dude what does say? Sweet.. What does mine say? Dude
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
kennoyce wrote: For all practical purposes it doesn't mean anything.
It certainly means more than nothing. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure a rope rated to 11 falls will have a more durable core than a rope rated to 7 falls. And a more durable core means that it will lose its elasticity slower than a rope rated to fewer falls. I'm pretty sure rgold or jim titt could explain this better and correct any mistakes so hopefully they will speak up.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
eli poss wrote: It certainly means more than nothing. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure a rope rated to 11 falls will have a more durable core than a rope rated to 7 falls. And a more durable core means that it will lose its elasticity slower than a rope rated to fewer falls. I'm pretty sure rgold or jim titt could explain this better and correct any mistakes so hopefully they will speak up.
Nope, you're wrong, for all practical purposes it means absolutely nothing. In a very general sense, a rope rated to hold more falls generally just means that it is either thicker, or has a higher core to sheath ratio. When comparing ropes of the same diameter a higher fall rated rope will most likely be less durable than a lower fall rated rope because it will probably have a lower percentage of sheath (which is where ropes actually wear out in use). Unfortunately though, because different manufactures do things a bit differently, even that correlation may not always be right.
Pavel Burov · · Russia · Joined May 2013 · Points: 50
hamradio.si/~s51kq/photo_al… - EN 892 requirements.

theuiaa.org/upload_area/UIA… - (additional to EN 892) UIAA requirements.
Don Ferris III · · Boulder, CO · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 186
Bill Kirby wrote: Dude what does say? Sweet.. What does mine say? Dude
Bill you fucking slay me!
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
kennoyce wrote: Nope, you're wrong, for all practical purposes it means absolutely nothing. In a very general sense, a rope rated to hold more falls generally just means that it is either thicker, or has a higher core to sheath ratio. When comparing ropes of the same diameter a higher fall rated rope will most likely be less durable than a lower fall rated rope because it will probably have a lower percentage of sheath (which is where ropes actually wear out in use). Unfortunately though, because different manufactures do things a bit differently, even that correlation may not always be right.
from UIAA ...

from WeightMyRAck and UIAA

from mammut ...

First question might be why we have multiple ropes of the same diameter that outwardly seem “the same”—what’s the difference? The answer would be that we try to look at who is using our ropes—a beginner climber who is toproping a lot vs. a sport climber who is falling a lot on very overhanging routes vs. a trad climber who is climbing lots of granite cracks vs an ice climber—and design ropes that will give them the highest level of utility combined with light weight and durability.

Since each of the above mentioned climbers tend to ask different things of their ropes, and hence they may need very different propoerties in order to stand up to one form of abuse vs another. For instance, a sport climber who is projecting hard routes is taking a zillion falls that are all relatively short—that puts a huge amount of stress on one very small section of rope, and the rope simply loses its elastic properties there and goes flat. Contrast that to the trad climber who is falling much, much less, but is usually on terrain that is less than vertical—this subjects the rope much more to abrasion of the sheath. Then there’s the ice and alpine climber who virtually never falls, but is routinely dragging the rope over sharp edges, blocky terrain, getting it wet and drying it, etc.

If we build all of our ropes to make the sport climber happy—i.e. they hold a ton of test falls for their diameter—because we need to give up some elements of the rope in order to build a rope that can hold all those falls we might disappoint the other climbers who don’t need a rope to hold so many falls, they need different things from their ropes. One of the big differences between ropes will be how climbers wear it out—if they wear it out from falling a lot, or if they wear it out from abrasion on rough rock. Although there are other elements in play that we can use to affect these properties, one of the differences in construction we use that reflects these design priorities is the relative thicknesses of the core vs the sheath—we can make two 10mm ropes, one having a thin core and thick sheath, and the other having a thick core and thin sheath. All other things being equal, the rope with the thick core and thin sheath will hold more falls before going flat, but wear faster from abrasion; and vice versa.

For instance, our Genesis 8.5mm half ropes are designed for ice and alpine climbing. Climbers rarely fall in these situations but they do subject their ropes to incredible abrasion and they need them to be very cut-resistant. With these ropes we consider a high number of test falls held to be of relatively less importance, so we sacrifice the falls-held rating—which reflects to a large degree how long a rope will last under repeated hard falls—in order to build a rope that will be ultra-durable under very harsh abrasion conditions and will be more difficult to scrape through to the core. We do this in part by altering the tension the rope is braided under, the pattern of the braid, chemical treatments that are thermally applied during the heat-treating process, etc—but we also use a relatively thin core and a very thick sheath, because that helps the rope to be as durable as possible under these types of situations.

Some of our ultra-thin single ropes like the Serenity 8.9mm have a relatively thin sheath because even with all the tricks we can muster we still need a certain amount of core in order to pass the UIAA test for a single rope—in this case we use a thinner sheath to achieve a very low weight and thin diameter, but we do thins knowing that this is a very specialized rope that is only appropriate under very specific circumstances. In these cases they are used by very experienced climbers for hard sport climbs or alpine routes where they are willing to sacrifice a level of abrasion resistance in exchange for lighter weight—this is why we recommend that people do not use any of these very thin single ropes for workout climbing or toproping. People also need to recognize that even though these are single ropes, and even though the diameter is larger than our Genesis half ropes, under conditions where the main danger is cutting or abrasion the thicker rope might actually be LESS durable and have a lower safety margin.

People who are comparing two ropes of similar diameters can usually see this in the test results—Mammut publishes the % of each ropes weight that is sheath so that people can judge for themselves what rope they will be happiest with. If you fall a lot, choose a rope with a high fall rating; if you don’t fall that much then choose a ropes with a thicker sheath (and if the manufacturer doesn’t publish that info call them and ask for it!). If you climb both abrasive rock and you fall alot, then think about how you wore out your last rope—if it went flat 10 or 15 feet from the ends, then get the rope with the high fall rating for the size and if the rope just fuzzed up to the point it felt sketchy or fat or lost its dry treatment, then concentrate on a rope with a thick sheath and a compact weave.


;)
SRB25 · · Woodside, ca · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 5

^^^^. Great info and addition to this thread. Thanks for posting Bearbreeder.

Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247

Is the weight of the climber have something to do with it? I'm just 135 lb

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Walter Galli wrote:Is the weight of the climber have something to do with it? I'm just 135 lb
lighter climbers put less impact force on the gear ... hence if we were to do a drop test with a say 55KG weight it would take many more falls than one with a 80KG weight ... as evidenced by the half vs single drop tests on triple rated ropes

you can read about it here ...

willgadd.com/single-and-hal…

basically its this but in reverse ....

safeclimbing.org/education/…

one note is that if yr belayer is always heavier than you, a softer catching stretchier rope might be a decent idea as you might not always get a "dynamic" belay due to belay positions or belayer mis-timing

;)
SRB25 · · Woodside, ca · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 5

What would a high sheath percentage be. I get a significant discount of petzl products, millet and trango ropes and want to buy a skinny (9.2-9.5) 60m for mostly yosemite. I already have a maxim Glider 9.9 70m. Which seems heavy and bulky. Any input from the peanut gallery? I know this topic has other threads but phone cannot search them. Open to other suggestions. I do like the mammut infinity and sterling line. Here's what I have to choose from. I climb moderates and don't fall often just like the discussion mentions about trad.

Millet magma trx 9.5, unknown
Petzl Volta 9.2, 55g/m, 42% sheath
Petzl Arial 9.5, 58g/m, 40% sheath
Trango diamond 9.4, 59g/m

Edit: prices range from $125-$165

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
SRB25 wrote:What would a high sheath percentage be. I get a significant discount of petzl products, millet and trango ropes and want to buy a skinny (9.2-9.5) 60m for mostly yosemite. I already have a maxim Glider 9.9 70m. Which seems heavy and bulky. Any input from the peanut gallery? I know this topic has other threads but phone cannot search them. Open to other suggestions. I do like the mammut infinity and sterling line. Here's what I have to choose from. I climb moderates and don't fall often just like the discussion mentions about trad. Millet magma trx 9.5, unknown Petzl Volta 9.2, 55g/m, 42% sheath Petzl Arial 9.5, 58g/m, 40% sheath Trango diamond 9.4, 59g/m Edit: prices range from $125-$165
for a general use rope i wouldnt consider anything under 40% ( and a weight of at least 60 g/m+) unless it was on a very deep sale

remember that its the % of sheath as a function of the WEIGHT

so a 65 g/m rope (roughly 10mm+) thats 26g of sheath material ...and you probably need to do some surface area calculation too, but thats beyond my lazay AZN math skills

now other things are supposed to matter as well like the weave pattern, dry treatment, etc ... but im too lazy to look up my references as im breeding beahs right now

but as napolean said ... god is on the side of big battalions ... the higher the sheath weight the more abrasion resistance

;)
SRB25 · · Woodside, ca · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 5

I'd like to be 58g/m or less and 9.5 or under. I just don't know much about Millet...petzl seems super soft/not durable. Don't know anything about trango but apparently they're made by PMI. Thoughts?

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
kennoyce wrote:When comparing ropes of the same diameter a higher fall rated rope will most likely be less durable than a lower fall rated rope because it will probably have a lower percentage of sheath (which is where ropes actually wear out in use)
Not necessarily. Gym ropes, for example, almost always wear out in the core before the sheath because they take a lot of falls and don't abrade because gym walls a typically overhanging. And do you have any evidence that says that more core doesn't equal longer lasting elasticity because the above chart by the UIAA would suggest otherwise
rocknice2 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 3,847

Its all a moot point. I'm probable going home after the first UIAA type fall. Definitely going home after the second.

Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 151

After a big sport fall, climb from the OTHER side of the rope to let the fall side recover and settle back in to the sheath.

After a rope takes enough falls, if you want to extend the life, take it to a shop that sells bulk rope and have them melt cut the end 15' or 3m or so off the end, then re-shrink tube the tip. This will remove the shot core and allow more use. Or retire it and give it to the artist asking for shot ropes, make a tire swing, rope rug, etc.

Beginners and general use ropes should just get 10.2 non treated ropes, then branch out as you understand better what you will do.

Mammut makes amazing ropes, and communicates what they do to their customers. Read about their down process for bags and jackets. They also make one of the only UIAA rated dry ropes for ice and alpine.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Climbing Gear Discussion
Post a Reply to "Ropes question."

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.