Tying the ends of the rope to your harness while rappeling...

Recently I have been setting up my rappels as normal except I am clove hitching/tying the the two ends of the rope into a large carabiner then clipping that to my belay loop or gear loop. Is there a reason NOT to do this?

I can't seem to come up with a downside to doing this, only upsides.
For example it solves the following:
-Ropes can't become knotted
-Can't rap off the ends of the rope
-Ropes can only be blown around half as far as a loose ended ropes
-Prevents (reduces likelihood) a rope/knotted end from getting stuck BELOW you

Thoughts on this from anyone. I really can't come up with a reason that this would make a rap more dangerous or create more problems. Like I said I have now been doing this more and more frequently especially when simul-rapping.

Thanks for giving it a thought!

The downside I see is efficiency on long rappels. Pulling the ends of the ropes up just to clip to your harness at every rappel would be a pain. And then the second would presumably to do as well (2X the wasted time). But if it makes you feel safer and you're not trying to climb fast, there's no reason not to.

Jordan thanks for the input. To clarify the most common way we have been doing this is tying the ends off and then throwing the remaining rope coil as you normally would. This way tying the knot/clove to your harness is really the only added step.

Also when simul-rapping each climber ties their respective end to their harness and when rapping one at a time only the leader would do this since he would then presumably be the fireman or rope guide to the next rap station and the danger of rapping off the ends as a second is slim to none.

Tying the rope to your harness might not allow the rope rotate while you rappel. Do you notices a difference in rope kinking while you rappel? I used to tie the end of the rope together during rappels but noticed the rope kinking more often. Now I tie stopper knots at the end of the rope which allows the ropes to rotate independent, reducing the kinks.

Weston I have been preaching this for years and people don't seem to get how simple and safe this method is, there is no good argument I have ever heard for not doing it, this is a method that saves lives

How many times have you seen accident reports from people rapping off the ends of their ropes?

How many times have you gotten a thrown knot stuck? even just a little bit?

throwing a quick overhand on a bight on either end and clipping to them to your belay loop is just as fast as tying 2 barrel knots and tossing it, gives you more control over the rope, and you CANNOT rap off the end.

the kinking that sometimes occurs is easily fixed, once you get to your rap station you undo the knots and let the ropes spin out. Though on the 200+ different multi pitch routes around the world I have employed this method, I still have not found the kinking to be a 'game changer' in any way. (sorry for for the horn-tooting-bad-assery-hadrcoreness-crusher-of-5.7's comment, im just trying to clarify i haven't just tried this once or twice and liked it, ive run this method through the ringer on all kinds of rock types/situations)

matt c. wrote:Tying the rope to your harness might not allow the rope rotate while you rappel. Do you notices a difference in rope kinking while you rappel? I used to tie the end of the rope together during rappels but noticed the rope kinking more often. Now I tie stopper knots at the end of the rope which allows the ropes to rotate independent, reducing the kinks.

Yep, this is the main issue. Normally rapping will help to get rid of twists in the rope and straighten it out, but if the ends are tied to something the twists are just pushed down the rope and it may end up getting really kinky toward the bottom of the rap. Obviously this is only an issue if the ropes are twisted to begin with, and it's not really a safety concern, but in my mind, one of the benefits of rapping is that it helps to unkink my ropes.

It is a very common way of doing things.

There normally isn't an issue with twists. Most raps are a lot less than a rope length if you are using 60m ropes so twists tend to not start forming until the very end. If you clove hitch the ropes to the krab rather than use an overhand you can jettison the knots quickly if twists become a problem. Although this leaves you unprotected, if is only likely to be at the end of the rap, and you with be fully focused and know where the ends are, so unlikely to rap off the ends. If on the other hand you use cloves on separate krabs you van jettison the krabs not the knots and you still have a backup. Or use overhands and jettsion these off the krab when twists start.

The only issue with leaving the knots or krabs on the tails is the normal one of remembering to remove them before you pull if you jettison them. And this is where there are a series of possibly over thought through methods. Like only putting a knot in the 'pull' rope and about 3m before the end. Assuming you don't get more than 3m of slippage, you will hit this knot before you go off the end of either rope. If you don't remember to remove the knot it doesn't matter as it is on on the 'up' rope.

One reason tying the end of the ropes to you is more common in the UK than elsewhere I think is that we have a lot of sea cliffs that one raps into. If you don't tie the ends to you they end up in the water.

Here's a picture of one method:

people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/hig…

David Coley wrote:Most raps are a lot less than a rope length if you are using 60m ropes

Maybe in the UK, but on this side of the pond, most raps are a full rope length so twisting can be a pretty annoying issue.

I would never tie the ropes to my harness. And I would never tie the ends together. As folks have said twisting ropes are a big issue. If you are concerned about the ropes going sideways put them in a rope bag and rap down with them in the bag feeding out rope as needed. Canyoneers do something similar but for different reasons. Otherwise just tie a knot in the end of each rope so the can do their thing as one goes down.

I'm with Allen. I just knot the ends and take measures when the conditions call for it. That's me. Your you. Your not gonna die from a twisted rope. Good thread.

slevin wrote: With a clove hitch any concern that it's not a hard knot at the end of the rope (i.e. your system isn't really closed)? Any concern clipping your rope ends into a non-weight bearing gear loop?

You have never trusted a clove to hold as much weight as a knot?
Considering that they will never be weighted this should not be an issue.

matt c. wrote:Tying the rope to your harness might not allow the rope rotate while you rappel. Do you notices a difference in rope kinking while you rappel? I used to tie the end of the rope together during rappels but noticed the rope kinking more often. Now I tie stopper knots at the end of the rope which allows the ropes to rotate independent, reducing the kinks.

This

Mike Brady wrote: You have never trusted a clove to hold as much weight as a knot? Considering that they will never be weighted this should not be an issue.

Of course I have.

However, considering the entire backup for the rappel is a clove hitch on a carabiner at the end of the rope, and precisely because it will not be weighted and remain cinched tight under body weight, I would tie a hard knot if I ever employed the OP's system (which would be rarely if ever).

My point is: if you take the time to tie something, make it bombproof. A clove hitch at the end of a rope, which can potentially migrate if it is not solidly set, is not closing the rappel system (like a stopper knot or hard knot) and hence, in my opinion, is not bombproof.

Like others, the issue with fixing rope ends to belay loop is not allowing twists/coils to spill off the rope ends. Have had to deal with some pretty time-consuming snarls when we've done this.

Also, some of the issue appeared to me to be that the two rope strands seemed less likely to independently release tangles ... any given tangle seemed more likely to involve BOTH strands which complicates untangling ... and so requires greater care when tossing.

slevin wrote: and precisely because it will not be weighted and cinched tight under body weight,

Good point.

its not till you have had to reascend the pitch because the rope became so twisted that you realize how bad an idea it is to tie the ropes together or to a common point ...

this is MUCH more pronounced on lower angle rappels where the friction against the rope "holds" those twists more than on rappels where they barely touch the rock

theres been times when its so bad that the rope can be pulled at all ...

i will never rappel with a person who insists on tying both ends to a common point where the rope cant untwists ... ive had to relead up several times to sort out the shiet show

i prefer to rappel first to sort out everything so that my partner just needs to zip down ... thats the BEST way ive found to prevent gongshows

;)

Craig Childre wrote: Your not gonna die from a twisted rope. Good thread.

twisted ropes easily lead to stuck ropes

there was a recent fatal accident where a party got a rope stuck and had to reascent ... the leader fell and blew the anchor apart

having to reascend a rappel only line (not the climb) can be quite dangerous

kennoyce wrote: Maybe in the UK, but on this side of the pond, most raps are a full rope length so twisting can be a pretty annoying issue.

Yes you got the point..

Connecting the ends of the rap lines back to the rappeller hasn't worked for me; I've had too much kinking on long rappels.

(I might add, somewhat off the topic, that if I am going to start messing around tying the rope ends back to my harness, I might as well have something that will prevent me from going off the end of the rope if I somehow totally lose control. With that in mind, tying ropes to the gear harness loops seems like a bad idea.)

Rapping off the ends should only be an issue for the first person down. One possible solution for them is to fix the ropes at the rap anchor so they can't pull or get uneven and then only tie a knot in the pull strand. This means there is never a knot in the strand that has to go up and through the anchor so no danger of forgetting to untie it. It also means that uneven ends aren't going to happen, eliminating a possible source of going off the ends, and there is no question about which rope has to be pulled.

But this only transfers the forgetfulness problem to the second rapper, who has to remember to undo whatever has been used at the anchor to fix the rap lines. A way around this is to install the second's rap device on the lines before the first person raps. If there is any worry about the ropes slipping even with this installation, a knot under the rap device will prevent the ropes from slipping and would have to be undone in order for the second to descend.

A small additional advantage is that while the first person is descending, the second can be setting up their autoblock backup and will be totally ready to go as soon as the first person is down.

A disadvantage in a multiple rappel situation is that the strand with the knot will typically become the strand that isn't pulled on the next rap so the original knot will have to be untied and the other strand knotted. Another disadvantage for some situations is that the first person can't test how hard it is to pull the ropes and so there is no opportunity to make adjustments at the anchor.

An alternate way to fix the ropes at the anchor and guarantee that the second won't forget to undo them is to use the Stone hitch, canyoneeringusa.com/techtip…, and connect the blocking carabiner (see photo below) to the second with a sling, so that the second is reminded to remove the blocking carabiner before they leave.

In a party of three, the Stone hitch can be used the way the canyoneers use it, which is that two people rap more or less at the same time, one on each strand. This can save a lot of time if there are multiple rappels. It isn't a classic simul rap because the strands are fixed, so there are no issues about one person getting on or off the rappel before the other. The third person rappels double-strand as usual. Of course with this method you'll want stopper knots at the end of both strands for the first two rappellers.

Lots of good experiences and info here! To add to this ONLY the first person does this. I haven't had any crazy amounts of kink and as soon as I get to the station the ends twirl out, they will also get a reset when the rope is pulled. Like I said I have been doing this for the past couple months without issue. I do see the plus side to a single knotted end on the pull side.

weston bierma wrote:Lots of good experiences and info here! To add to this ONLY the first person does this. I haven't had any crazy amounts of kink and as soon as I get to the station the ends twirl out, they will also get a reset when the rope is pulled. Like I said I have been doing this for the past couple months without issue. I do see the plus side to a single knotted end on the pull side.

on lower angle slab they might not "twirl out" ... the friction of the rope on the slab often prevents the rope from untwisting ....

this includes those raps that have a lower angle top and then gets a bit steeper to the end

theres been several times where the slab traps the twists ... effectively making it impossible to pull the rope

i remember once where this guy from the rockies tied his ends together ... when the twists got stuck on the slab he said "well it never happens out there" ... i retorted "do you guys even have lower angle friction slabs there?" ... i had to lead back up

what you can get away with higher angle raps, sometimes doesnt work with lower angle high friction raps especially if there are features for stuff to get trapped in

;)