Party of Three, swapping leads

This is a real pain in the butt. Is there any way to avoid a clusterfudge at belay anchors?

This has worked for me.
3 ropes, 3 climbers

Climber 1 leads the pitch with one lead rope (rope 1) and trails a second (rope 2). When climber 1 reaches the anchor they fix both ropes to the anchor and take a smoke break

Climber 2 ascends the lead rope (rope 1), cleaning the pitch while climber 3 ascends rope 2 which does not go through any gear. Climber 3 has rope 3 on his back.

Climber 3 reaches climber 1 at the top of the pitch while climber 2 is still cleaning the previous pitch.

Climber 3 starts belaying climber 1 on the rope 3 and climber 1 trails rope 2 to repeat the next pitch. Climber 2 arrives at the belay with the gear that was cleaned from the previous pitch and sends it up to climber 1 on the rope.

Continue thusly blocking leads

How about:

climb on doubles as usual, except the leader, and the follower who will lead the next pitch are clipped in to the rope with a locker.

when it's time to swing leads at the anchor, just unclip, and clip back in.

I haven't done this. just a thought.

No. There are a number of ways to help reduce clutter at belay stations, but the simple math is that you are increasing the bodies by 50% and ropes by 100% at a given station.

The best thing to do is find a 4th and split into two parties. If you're stuck with 3, the least bad thing is to lead in blocks. Climber A is the leader. He tails two ropes and belays B & C up at the same time, B 10-15' above C (so if B blows a hold, he doesn't land on top of C). A has placed himself to the left or right of the anchor, depending on which way the next pitch goes. B gets to the anchor and starts flaking the ropes for A to lead. C is cleaning and gives all the gear to A as soon as he's at the anchor. A reracks and takes off immediately, since he's on belay from B who's already set to go. C now organizes the anchor situation such that he can take it apart as fast as possible (uncrossing lines, dealing with rats' nests, etc). B & C can easily swap roles. The additional benefit of block leading is that A gets to the anchor pumped (or not as the case may be) but gets to rest until B & C both get up. If you swap leads, B or C is effectively climbing two pitches at once - following the first pitch then immediately leading the next. If you're at your limit, you'll notice the extra climbing w/out rest.

I think a far more efficient way to do it is to use only a single rope and swap back and forth between two leaders with the third doing all of the cleaning and belaying. With two friends we were able to climb 8 pitches at the same speed we would have done so with only two of us.

The way this works is to have your leader take off, belayed by the second (permanent belay bitch). Once the leader gets established at the anchor, they take up rope until it reaches the second who is attached via an alpine butterfly with a two foot loop and a clove at the end of the loop through a locking biner. The biner is then attached into the seconds belay loop. 10-15 ft below the second, (route dependent,) the third is attached via a figure eight at the tail end of the rope. The second cleans the route (unless it's traversing) and then both the second and the third have to communicate well so as not get stuck in an awkward stance.

Once the second reaches the belay, they hard point in and the third is put on a munter and brought up where they hard point in as well. At this point the second gets the first on belay and re-ties another alpine butterfly with a clove near the other end of the rope. At the same time, the first cleans up the rack and passes it over to the third who racks up. The third then takes off while the second belays again and the first manages rope.

If done well this should be more efficient than two climbers because you can split up duties at the belay and minimize time in transitions. And major bonus, there's only one rope so you don't have the normal clusterfuck that happens whenever you use multiple ropes. You might have to throw an extra line in your bag for rappels, but no big deal.

Excuse the shitty drawing but hopefully this helps explain the concept a little better. Obviously, as with anytime you have multiple people simul-climbing on a length of rope, you don't want the follower taking a fall and pulling the second off. Make sure whoever is at the back of the train is well within their abilities to minimize risk.

Shitty drawing of team of three lead swapping with a single rope

Lothian Buss wrote:How about: climb on doubles as usual, except the leader, and the follower who will lead the next pitch are clipped in to the rope with a locker. when it's time to swing leads at the anchor, just unclip, and clip back in. I haven't done this. just a thought.

Leading on a rope attached to your harness via a locker is a basic climbing 101 no no. I suppose it would work for the follower but it's still not a good thing to do.

Russ Keane wrote:This is a real pain in the butt. Is there any way to avoid a clusterfudge at belay anchors?

Practice, as a team, until you have it down. And lead in blocks, to avoid swapping too much.

I've tried the clip-in-with-a-locker approach. The trade off between fast and one more thing to screw up strikes me as a wash. Using just one rope is pretty inflexible unless the terrain is really easy.

I've had success with the more traditional "caterpillar method" with three people, so long as only two of them swap leads.

Three climbers, two ropes:

1) Climber A climbs first on blue rope
2) Climber A brings up climber B on blue rope while climber B trails red rope.
3) Climber B brings up climber C on red rope.
4) Climber C takes off leading on red rope.

Climber B ends up doing a whole lot of belaying and no leading.

Quick google search came up with this

Climbing as 3 or more

I have done a fair bit of climbing in a party of three. Our usual system is for the leader to climb using double rope techniques. Both followers climb at the same time, separated by 20-30 feet, being belayed by an ATC in guide mode. When you want to switch leaders, the leader just unties from one of his ropes and the new leader ties in to it. The beauty of the system is that the leader can launch off as soon as they're racked up and one of the followers has them on belay. The third person (who would otherwise be useless) then has the responsibility of fixing the clusterfuck of ropes you just made, and making sure the belayer doesn't need to worry about rope management.

Tyson Anderson wrote: Leading on a rope attached to your harness via a locker is a basic climbing 101 no no. I suppose it would work for the follower but it's still not a good thing to do.

why not just untie ends? No need to do this on a locker?

Here's how I've done it.

Option A - If the route is pretty cruisy and well below the limit of 2 in the party, and you only want one rope:

1. Climber 1 leads as normal
2. Climber 2 ties in on a bight to a locker 30 feet from end of rope, climber 3 simuls behind on end of rope.
3. Climber 2 goes in direct to anchor, and climber 3 leads next pitch.

Option B - If you're bringing two ropes, or the climb is closer to your limit:

1. Climber 1 leads tagging a line.
2. Climber 1 belays C2 and C3 simultaneously in guide mode.
3. C2 goes in direct when reaching the anchor, unties, and C3 attaches this end to haul loop to tag up while leading the next pitch.
4. C2 ties into the end of the tag line that C1 brought up initially

Plan on trying this for upcoming trip of long routes in a party of 3.

A leads with rope 1
B cleans gear if not traversing route and follows on rope 1
B arrives at belay
B fixes rope 2 which climber C will use to self-belay or ascend to anchor.
B hands over gear, puts A on belay while C is self-belaying to anchor on fixed line 2.

Feel like this would keep from the standard cluster of rope from accumulating at a belay and being a royal pain in the ass with parties of 3 and would keep the group moving throughout the climb. I feel like this could be quite efficient...

the "best" bearbreeding way

lets designate climber A and B as the leaders ... climber C as the follower ...

also designate the main rope (lead line for A and B) and the tag line (second line for climber C)

- climber A leads up pitch on main line, trails tag line

- at belay climber A sets up both ropes on autblock and brings up C in the middle follows by B simultaneously with sufficient separation (weakest climber in the middle) ... note that managing the ropes in 2 separate piles or flakes will make things ALOT easier (not too hard to do in autoblock)

- once B and C reaches the belay, A should have the main rope all flaked/piled up ready to go, C should immediate flake/pile up the tag line

- B leads up next pitch with the tag line and the process repeats

basically treat A and C as the leaders on a single main line, and C as the follower with tag line which either leader can bring up ... no untie/retying needed

it takes about 25% more time if everyone does their thing

theres a few more tricks but thats the gist of it

;)

Medic741 wrote:Plan on trying this for upcoming trip of long routes in a party of 3. A leads with rope 1 B cleans gear if not traversing route and follows on rope 1 B arrives at belay B fixes rope 2 which climber C will use to self-belay or ascend to anchor. B hands over gear, puts A on belay while C is self-belaying to anchor on fixed line 2. Feel like this would keep from the standard cluster of rope from accumulating at a belay and being a royal pain in the ass with parties of 3 and would keep the group moving throughout the climb. I feel like this could be quite efficient...

the danger in this is that unless C keeps on pulling the fixed line up and tying it in short ( a total biatch) to his harness or coiling it as he goes up ... the rope may get stuck when you pull it up and someone will have to rap back down and clean it

;)

The comments in the Tahquitz and Suicide area description has some beta on climbing with a three person party:

youtube.com/watch?v=XvJK5Iu…

With 2 ropes the middle person can lead, get belayed by on one of the two ropes. Once at the top can just belay the other two, one at a time. It is annoying to have an extra rope around but shouldn't be too bad.

or I'm wrong and yerrr gonna die.

Russ Keane wrote:This is a real pain in the butt. Is there any way to avoid a clusterfudge at belay anchors?

Just follow this image. Job done:

people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/hig…

Derrick W wrote:I have done a fair bit of climbing in a party of three. Our usual system is for the leader to climb using double rope techniques. Both followers climb at the same time, separated by 20-30 feet, being belayed by an ATC in guide mode. When you want to switch leaders, the leader just unties from one of his ropes and the new leader ties in to it.

It's easier if the previous leader (A) stays tied to both ropes when switching leads. After B and C arrive at the stance then C unties and hands his end of the rope to the B, who becomes the new leader. That way A is feeding out both ropes from the top of the pile, so they don't get tangled up and they don't need to be re-stacked (well that's the theory). When B reaches the next belay then A unties from one rope and hands the end to C. This also allows A to tie directly to the anchors with both ropes.

Edit: I think this is the same system that David Coley has linked to.

A threesome with three experienced leaders rotating leads can be pretty darn fast. Sure, there may be some loss due to staggered followers. But upward progress need never be interrupted for, say, pee breaks / pictures / food.

Each individual gets a break every third pitch for as long as it takes the next pitch to be led.

Anyone have experience stacking the rope into a lightweight sil-net style rope bag while belaying 2 followers simultaneously? I've had trouble pulling in the slack and stacking / coiling two ropes neatly at the same time. Tips for this?

Was thinking something like this would be perfect for stacking the rope into
backcountry.com/outdoor-res…

One followers rope goes in one while the other followers rope goes in the other. Then everyone arrives and it's all neat with no ropes trailing all over the place