Advice needed - Good book on scrambling technique?

I've been mountaineering for a long time and consider myself pretty good at rock-hopping, boulder scrambling, scree surfing, etc.

I've went on a few trips lately with my fiancé and she is just painfully slow. She maintains 0 momentum and has no dynamic balance. On talus, she has to stop every step to find her balance. On scree, scree surfing is completely out of the question. Every couple steps she has to stop completely. Also on boulders, instead of staying on top of the big boulders and hopping around, she crawls down in between them.

I know a lot of moving quickly in the mountains comes with experience, but we've been on quite a few trips and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. Those trips are not very much fun for me at all - it's very hard for me to go at her speed. I either feel like I'm crawling or I'm just constantly getting ahead and sitting and waiting for her. Also sometimes its dangerous when we are trying to beat weather, or get down before dark, etc. Is there any way I can speed the learning process up?

I try to give her some tips and try to teach her. I give her a few tips and then demonstrate them. I try go a handful of steps and have her match them. I don't know what else to do. I don't know if its my poor teaching skills or the fact that it's hard to teach someone you are dating, but I am having absolutely zero luck. I was hoping maybe if I gave her a book and someone else saying it and not me, it might stick.

Any thoughts on a book? or on some other way to get her to the point where she can be more comfortable and move faster? or maybe Are some people just always destined to be slow?

Is she using poles? Not so helpful on larger boulder fields where you use your hands, but very helpful on scree and smaller talus fields.

FrankPS wrote:Is she using poles? Not so helpful on larger boulder fields where you use your hands, but very helpful on scree and smaller talus fields.

She does use them often, especially when she is on loose stuff. Personally I've been trying to convince her not to use them, because I feel like they are slowing her down, but maybe I'm all wrong on that. I just know that for me, in general I feel like poles make it harder to have dynamic balance and move from one step into the next, which seems to be her biggest problem. it's constantly just 1 step and stop. I can't let her go first so she can set the pace and follow behind her because she stops so often (and its suddenly and unpredictably) that I end up running her over, and I can't seem to do one step and stop - it's so unnatural.

I also should add that we do some trail running and for some reason she seems fairly comfortable running downhill on rocky trails. Maybe the backpack throws her off - I don't know.

Well, in general, I feel poles give me better balance and confidence. Except when I'm in large boulders where I need my hands, then they just get in the way. If she feels more comfortable with poles, I'd recommend you let her use them.

It may take some time for her to gain the confidence over talus and boulder fields.

Is she new to this rough, off-trail travel?

I'm not particularly fast, but I'm a lot better than when I first started many years ago.

Edit: With a backpack on, poles give me waaaay better balance. Sorry to keep harping on poles, but they make a big difference for me.

Stagg54 wrote:I also should add that we do some trail running and for some reason she seems fairly comfortable running downhill on rocky trails. Maybe the backpack throws her off - I don't know.

Its definitely the backpack. You should try going on shorter scrambling trips, so the pack size can shrink a bit. Also, try just rock-hopping packless, where the whole point is to hop from rock to rock, without the pressure of the entire trip hanging in the balance.

It absolutely is a matter of maintaining balance with the pack on; part of it is comfort, but part of it is fitness. If I don't have the strength in my legs and abs to control my center of gravity with a pack on, I will try to do everything statically.

FrankPS wrote: It may take some time for her to gain the confidence over talus and boulder fields.

Just as a second opinion, I think confidence has everything to do with it. She's gotta learn to trust her balance, feet, footwear etc. Once she breaks through that mental barrier it will get a lot easier for both of you. The only way to get there is by doing it and being as supportive and understanding as possible. Don't push anyone to do something they're not comfortable with. I've had climbing partners who tried to do that before and they're no longer climbing partners for that same reason. I'd imagine the same would apply to boulder hopping.

Start small, work up to the big stuff.

Good luck

I had the exact same problem. My girlfriend did the same step and stop all the way through boulder fields and it took forever, not to mention looked really hard. I ended up convincing her to come out with me on talus hopping day hikes. It was really helpful to her to practice on smaller talus fields. I'd pick a random boulder and say, "Go there." Then when she got there we'd go back and do it again. Also for her specifically, it helped if she lightly held onto my hand. It was definitely harder for me, but it helped her build confidence. Make it into a game if you can.

I think a lot of those skills we have in the mountains that are non-technical, we don't think about how long it took for us to develop them. Be patient and try to get out specifically to practice those skills, it will come along.

Scrambling, especially what you described, does not require a lot of technique. I think the most important skill needed is balance. Confidence is also important, but it’s hard to be confident when you’re having trouble balancing. Maybe getting her a balance board will help. The one I have is basically a wooden board glued on top of half of a wooden ball. Trying to balance on one leg on this balance board mimic the motion and sensation of stepping on a wobbly boulder. Don’t get the balance board with a gel-like bottom, the gel is too soft and gives a different feel than a hard wooden one. Some of the slowness may also come from fatigue, practice on a balance board will also help strengthening the little balancing muscles so they don’t fatigue as quickly.

I’m with you on trekking poles may slow you down on loose stuff. I’m actually a big proponent of trekking poles. I use them all the time on hard surfaces even when I’m not wearing a heavy pack. I’d plant one pole with each step and push myself forward with my arms, this increases my speed or at least allows me to engage more body parts for hiking. But as soon as I get on loose scree, the poles loose much of their value since I can’t effectively push myself forward with them anymore. If I’m talus hopping where I need to focus more on each step, I often find myself holding the poles in front of me like a giant praying mantis. Then of course when I’m scrambling on boulders, poles in my hand just get in the way. So usually when I get to the loose stuff, I either shorten my poles and hold them in one hand, or just pack them away completely, depends on how much of the loose stuff I have to hike through.

Stagg54 wrote:Those trips are not very much fun for me at all - it's very hard for me to go at her speed. I either feel like I'm crawling or I'm just constantly getting ahead and sitting and waiting for her. Also sometimes its dangerous when we are trying to beat weather, or get down before dark, etc. Is there any way I can speed the learning process up? I try to give her some tips and try to teach her. I give her a few tips and then demonstrate them. I try go a handful of steps and have her match them. I don't know what else to do. I don't know if its my poor teaching skills or the fact that it's hard to teach someone you are dating, but I am having absolutely zero luck. I was hoping maybe if I gave her a book and someone else saying it and not me, it might stick. Any thoughts on a book? or on some other way to get her to the point where she can be more comfortable and move faster? or maybe Are some people just always destined to be slow?

You should chill out. Sounds like you are pretty frustrated with her. Does she get frustrated with you when you try to 'teach'? As other posters have said, there's not really a ton of technique to scrambling, it just involves using your natural athleticism.

Maybe you need to find some different partners for when you are getting rad in the alpine. I love cragging with my gf, but not multipitch trad - it's not her thing, and if I convince her to come along I accept that I will be climbing easier grades and much more slowly than I would with a different partner. I accept these things as the price of sharing that experience with that person. Same thing with a n00b friend I am teaching to climb. When we go cragging, I'm just not going to get in as many pitches in the day, because it can take him 30 mins to climb a pitch and 10 minutes to clean a sport anchor.

I climb with these people because I enjoy their company and it's a fun thing to do together. Pushing myself or doing hard routes is a second priority when they are involved, and it's something I accept.

I'm obviously WAAAAAAY more psyched to climb with people who are at my level (or stronger), or those with the internal motivation to do routes that they are interested in even if they are not as experienced/strong.

If she is truly psyched on getting rad in the alpine with you, then you should chill out and go at her pace or just a little faster while letting her push herself to keep up. Be patient and she will get better. If enjoying the day with her is not worth the price (going slow), go climb with a different partner and leave her to climb stuff she is interested in. If she is truly motivated to climb the type of terrain you're talking about, she'll get there eventually.

What kind of shoes is she wearing? I see lots of people wobbling through talus in big heavy boots. Running or approach shoes with sticky rubber work much better and will offer more confidence when talus hopping.

Get her skiing.

Tico wrote:Get her skiing.

+1 for scree
+1 to trail running, hiking on uneven ground

Text-wise check Freedom of the Hills for basic technique.

The talus/boulder hopping will come with experience, and it's going to feel harder if you're also struggling with altitude or feeling pressure from trying to beat the weather or keep up with your partner. I feel like it takes me a few climbs every alpine season to my flow back on talus, and I realize it's just acclimatization. I personally find that poles get in the way on anything but loose scree, but I'm not used to them and don't ski.

She could also try a wobble board at home to improve proprioception. Not sure where you live, but dry river beds (e.g. the Red Rocks canyons) are also a good place to practice on unstable ground/boulders without dealing with altitude.

Lastly, have her take an intro mountaineering course or go with more experienced friends to gain experience without that tension that just often comes with having your significant other teach you something.

Eric Chabot wrote: You should chill out. Sounds like you are pretty frustrated with her. Does she get frustrated with you when you try to 'teach'? As other posters have said, there's not really a ton of technique to scrambling, it just involves using your natural athleticism. Maybe you need to find some different partners for when you are getting rad in the alpine. I love cragging with my gf, but not multipitch trad - it's not her thing, and if I convince her to come along I accept that I will be climbing easier grades and much more slowly than I would with a different partner. I accept these things as the price of sharing that experience with that person. Same thing with a n00b friend I am teaching to climb. When we go cragging, I'm just not going to get in as many pitches in the day, because it can take him 30 mins to climb a pitch and 10 minutes to clean a sport anchor. I climb with these people because I enjoy their company and it's a fun thing to do together. Pushing myself or doing hard routes is a second priority when they are involved, and it's something I accept. I'm obviously WAAAAAAY more psyched to climb with people who are at my level (or stronger), or those with the internal motivation to do routes that they are interested in even if they are not as experienced/strong. If she is truly psyched on getting rad in the alpine with you, then you should chill out and go at her pace or just a little faster while letting her push herself to keep up. Be patient and she will get better. If enjoying the day with her is not worth the price (going slow), go climb with a different partner and leave her to climb stuff she is interested in. If she is truly motivated to climb the type of terrain you're talking about, she'll get there eventually.

totally. The OP is text book poor expedition behavior. I had the question 'does SHE want to go your speed?'. Maybe she doesnt. Find trips that are good for her too. Its called "Marriage" and that is really some alien language for 'compromise'. Besides you both will enjoy your period weekends when you go your seperate ways. Thats usually when I come home and she has redecorated one or more rooms.

Rule #1 on backcountry travel in our group(s.
If a person A is slower than person B, shift weight. To the point where B is carrying all the weight in her pack, and person A is keeping pace with nothing in his pack.
Rule #2. Neither A nor B should feel uncomfortable with rule #1.
etc.
As my father aged (stopped packing when he was 87!) his pack got lighter, and mine subsequently heavier. He was not comfortable with this until he came to the conclusion that it was lighter pack or no packing. Carry the weight, it's nicer than the other options.
Is GF enjoying her outings?
And sticks rule!

She needs to find some girlfriends to hike, climb, scramble with. She'll gain a lot more confidence being with other women than some guy dragging her through the backcountry being inpatient and rude.

Muscrat wrote:Rule #1 on backcountry travel in our group(s. If a person A is slower than person B, shift weight. To the point where B is carrying all the weight in her pack, and person A is keeping pace with nothing in his pack. Rule #2. Neither A nor B should feel uncomfortable with rule #1. etc. As my father aged (stopped packing when he was 87!) his pack got lighter, and mine subsequently heavier. He was not comfortable with this until he came to the conclusion that it was lighter pack or no packing. Carry the weight, it's nicer than the other options. Is GF enjoying her outings? And sticks rule!

Exactly except the pole/stick thing, the last thing I want while scrambling is something in my hands. it seems a pole(s) or a stick would just promote slowness and that goes against what the OP is asking

T Roper wrote: Exactly except the pole/stick thing, the last thing I want while scrambling is something in my hands. it seems a pole(s) or a stick would just promote slowness and that goes against what the OP is asking

That's what I used to think before I started using poles - "I don't want something in my hands." If you need your hands for the scrambling, poles will get in the way. If you don't use your hands when scrambling, and the talus is small, or it's scree, you might change your mind after you use them a few times.

As usual, it depends...

Have you considered ending the relationship?

Dr. Long Arm wrote:Have you considered ending the relationship?

No, I love my poles. :)

Muscrat wrote:Rule #1 on backcountry travel in our group(s. If a person A is slower than person B, shift weight. To the point where B is carrying all the weight in her pack, and person A is keeping pace with nothing in his pack. Rule #2. Neither A nor B should feel uncomfortable with rule #1. etc. As my father aged (stopped packing when he was 87!) his pack got lighter, and mine subsequently heavier. He was not comfortable with this until he came to the conclusion that it was lighter pack or no packing. Carry the weight, it's nicer than the other options. Is GF enjoying her outings? And sticks rule!

I have tried rule number 1 many times and it does not solve the problem.