The only book on crack technique worth reading:

reboot wrote: This crack (in the crux section) has plenty of flare at the edge of the crack, as most granite cracks do, making toe jam much easier (equivalent to a 0.75 camalot or wider crack). A "perfect" wingate splitter on vertical wall in purple camalot size for a few body length would usually warrant a mid 5.12 grade, not 5.10d.

well now i REALLY hit the post limit so i guess youll have the "last word"

ive jammed toe tips into cracks smaller than that just fine ... and even if its a "0.75 camalot" equivalent ... thats still within the 1-1.5" that is considered "not toe jammable" ... nor have YOU done the climb

now i dont know about yr "sandstone" ... perhaps its harder ... perhaps not ... this particualr climb is a bit les than vertical

i mean really mistah reboot ... what are you "ARGUING" about???

- first it was all finger and tips techniques can be learned in 2 hours

- then it was about how much harder finger cracks of the SAME GRADE are much more physical than a wider crack of the same grade ... something generally not true out here

- then you went off trying to ask me about what wasnt in the book, trying to claim its "comprehensive" ... and when i gave you examples in good faith, you turned around and tried bashing me for stating its not a "cook book" which was my point and in my OP i said its just fine if it wasnt

- and then you go off about how walking the cracks are just underclings ... or various other things

i mean really there ... i SAID IT WAS A FINE BOOK ... do you want me to say YOU ARE AN AWWWWSUM CLIMBAH, and that the book is the best thing since the holy bible???

obviously its not enough to state that its a good book for some folks here ... or point out that it has more of a focus on certain areas ...

heres what i ORIGINALLY said about the book ...

so i picked one up with my devalued maple syrup dollahs ...

its a fine book ... basically its the "self coached climber" for cracks

however it doesnt spend a lot of time on the fingers and tips and much more of the space on wider cracks ... which is fine as thats what im weakest at ...

theres are also techniques that arent in the book, that are in other sources ... i highly recommend watching the wideboyz free videos in crack climbing

overall its a good resource to have, but i feel its been a bit overhyped on da intrawebz

now all they need to do is come out with one for slab/thin face ... at least out in squamish thin crack climbing is integral with your slab technique

i think yr burning MP just to see the world burn ... none of this exchange does anything to sell the book ...

ever consider a career as a religious fanatic? ... obviously its not good enough for something to say they believe in god ... you must bash em, smack em, until they believe that everything thats in the bible (or koran) is the absolute truth and it lacks for nothing ... and that if they dont live every part of it literally they must be burned at the intrawebz stake

;)

bearbreeder wrote: i dont know about yr "sandstone"

exactly... you could've just admitted that you don't have such experience. You said you could jam your toes in purple camalot sized crack, I informed you that's because granite cracks often have flare/irregularity (and yes, I can see that from the photo you linked), making toe jamming in that size possible/much easier.

If you can't make a trip down to the desert, I recommend you find someone w/ an adjustable wooden crack setup (yes, many of the sandstone cracks are that featureless & parallel), and then come back & tell us how well toe jams in purple camalot sized crack work. Maybe you'll then understand what the author is talking about. Is that so hard?

reboot wrote: exactly... you could've just admitted that you don't have such experience. You said you could jam your toes in purple camalot sized crack, I informed you that's because granite cracks often have flare/irregularity (and yes, I can see that from the photo you linked), making toe jamming in that size possible/much easier. If you can't make a trip down to the desert, I recommend you find someone w/ an adjustable wooden crack setup (yes, many of the sandstone cracks are that featureless & parallel), and then come back & tell us how well toe jams in purple camalot sized crack work. Maybe you'll then understand what the author is talking about. Is that so hard?

I said specifically that I can get those sizes in when I climb and gave examples out here where i climb ... I never claimed anything about climbing in ur holy eldorado =P

Now i do apologize if this book is mostly meant for absolutely perfect laser cut frictionless sandstone "pure" cracks .... And not the majority of cracks that actually have irregularities !!!

And perhaps perfect pure finger cracks out there do take 2 hours to learn ... And finger cracks of the same grade are physically more demanding than say offwidth ... But that generally isnt true out here

Perhaps you can modify yr review as "really good on perfect laser cut cracks, for the rest of the cracks in the world read more stuff" .... (Sarcasm, the book has plenty for granite too ... But thats the "tone" yr taking)

The other thing is perhaps you realize that not everyone has the same size feet and hands ... Previously you said derisively about "child" sized feet ... Many women have smaller feet and hands, perhaps even child sized ... Im sure you dont imply this book isnt meant for all physically different climbers

No woody ... But heres my stinky feet for ya in the 1-1.5" range

Stinky foot

Moah stinky feet

I eagerly await yr next bashing when folks dont give an absolutely glowing review of your holy book

Obviously its not enough for you for me to say its a fine book and the "self coached climber" for cracks

According to you its only meant for manly men who climb laser cut sandstone pure cracks ... No kids, women or granite climbers need apply (sarcasm)

And suggestions for it are to be razed the with gods holy MP wraith (not sarcasm)

I do apologize if i take a bit to respond as im hiting the post limit again, and im heading to the crag again

;)

bearbreeder wrote:I never claimed anything about climbing in ur holy eldorado =P Now i do apologize if this book is mostly meant for absolutely perfect laser cut frictionless sandstone "pure" cracks

You realize he's talking about Indian Creek, right? Or, frankly, all of the sandstone in Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and Western Colorado (so, most of the exposed rock)?
And that you also can't jam in .5 camalot size in basalt, right? That covers most of Oregon and Idaho.
Or that classic .5 camalot cracks like Equinox (which, incidentally, is in granite) also have very few toe jams because the crack doesn't flare enough?

Also, you're the one who introduced crack size in inches.
The technique for baggy fingers is the same whether baggy fingers for you is green aliens or green camalots. Chances are, if you're finger stacking, you're not gonna get good rand smears unless the crack flairs. And if the crack flairs, then its the exact same foot work as for a tight-hands crack.

Brian Scoggins wrote: You realize he's talking about Indian Creek, right? Or, frankly, all of the sandstone in Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and Western Colorado (so, most of the exposed rock)? And that you also can't jam in .5 camalot size in basalt, right? That covers most of Oregon and Idaho. Or that classic .5 camalot cracks like Equinox (which, incidentally, is in granite) also have very few toe jams because the crack doesn't flare enough? Also, you're the one who introduced crack size in inches. The technique for baggy fingers is the same whether baggy fingers for you is green aliens or green camalots. Chances are, if you're finger stacking, you're not gonna get good rand smears unless the crack flairs. And if the crack flairs, then its the exact same foot work as for a tight-hands crack.

Wake me up when u have the book in hand for an actual review

Zzzzzzzz

You do realize that i never claimed anything about sandstone or other such .... Simply how the book relates to where i climb and my own opinion ... Which obviously one cant have on MP

Its a fine book ... But i didnt realize it only applies to certains areas and rock types (sarcasm)

Its very interesting yr going off without even having the book in hand

Cant even say that a fine book might be focused more on certain things than otherea these days !!!

As to equinox i didnt realize you sent 12c granite finger cracks there brian !!!

I must really congrajulate you for learning how to do so in 20 min !!!

;)

Bearbreeder, showing your ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of - not everyone has climbed on all types of rock, and that's fine. But throwing a fit like you're doing when called on it is not doing yourself any favors.

My wife has tiny hands and feet. She can get decent tight hands in .75 Camalot cracks, and wears size six women's shoes. So yeah, pretty tiny.

That said, there is no way in hell can she get her toes into true .5 splitters. Believe me, she's tried plenty.

Okay, enough about that.

If you feel the book doesn't spend enough space on fingers and tips, that's fine. But what many people are pointing out is that it seems like your critique is based on a misunderstanding.

If I follow you, you're saying that you'd like to have seen more discussion on footwork in thinner cracks. But the book basically says that unless there are irregularities on the edge, or flares, or pods, the thinnest splitter cracks will not really accept your feet, and you will need to resort to rand smears, or using face techniques. Therefore, techniques are provided for those larger sizes that do admit your feet, and the author instructs you to look for flares and pods where you can get those kinds of toe jams in otherwise smaller cracks.

My experience (illustrated by the example I gave with my wife) is that the author's advice is dead on correct. But you keep harping back to thin cracks (in granite) that _do_ have such features, and saying the book should be telling you what to do in them, while missing the point that such cracks do not climb like .5 cracks (or smaller) for your feet. Rather, the flared and rounded edges allow "bigger" techniques to work. Which is exactly what the book details.

As for criticizing a book on crack technique because it doesn't provide slab footwork technique, that would be silly, but I don't think you're really saying that. You're just pointing out that such technique tips would be useful. I agree, though I think we'd all agree that this book is not the place for it.

GO

i don't really remember using the crack for feet that much on sentry box. i think i did a lot more small edging outside of the crack (to fight the lean, keep my feet out of the rope/gear, etc).

It's OK to be a one trick pony when your only trick is Squamish. Still, a thinking man would acknowledge a world outside of there.

Granite just climbs different. Take Soft Parade at Vedauwoo. .5 and .75 and climbs like a tight hand crack due to the flare. Or Bishops Crack in the Platte, perfect vertical splitter with no flare but since it's granite, there are feet all the way up it.

Fact is, the feet outside the crack are just face climbing. You don't need to be THE SENDER to know that if there is a solid nub on the face that it's cool to step on it. Spending some time on what to do if there isn't a nub on the face, now you've entered the realm of the less obvious.

So BB, are you upset that he left out the easy stuff? Did it irk you that he left out your favorite style? Or are you just trying to be contrary because it was so well received?

GabeO wrote:Bearbreeder, showing your ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of - not everyone has climbed on all types of rock, and that's fine. But throwing a fit like you're doing when called on it is not doing yourself any favors. My wife has tiny hands and feet. She can get decent tight hands in .75 Camalot cracks, and wears size six women's shoes. So yeah, pretty tiny. That said, there is no way in hell can she get her toes into true .5 splitters. Believe me, she's tried plenty. Okay, enough about that. If you feel the book doesn't spend enough space on fingers and tips, that's fine. But what many people are pointing out is that it seems like your critique is based on a misunderstanding. If I follow you, you're saying that you'd like to have seen more discussion on footwork in thinner cracks. But the book basically says that unless there are irregularities on the edge, or flares, or pods, the thinnest splitter cracks will not really accept your feet, and you will need to resort to rand smears, or using face techniques. Therefore, techniques are provided for those larger sizes that do admit your feet, and the author instructs you to look for flares and pods where you can get those kinds of toe jams in otherwise smaller cracks. My experience (illustrated by the example I gave with my wife) is that the author's advice is dead on correct. But you keep harping back to thin cracks (in granite) that _do_ have such features, and saying the book should be telling you what to do in them, while missing the point that such cracks do not climb like .5 cracks (or smaller) for your feet. Rather, the flared and rounded edges allow "bigger" techniques to work. Which is exactly what the book details. As for criticizing a book on crack technique because it doesn't provide slab footwork technique, that would be silly, but I don't think you're really saying that. You're just pointing out that such technique tips would be useful. I agree, though I think we'd all agree that this book is not the place for it. GO

I keep on saying its a FINE book ... Comparable yo the self coached climber

All i suggested was that it was much more focuses on the larger sizes and perhaps not for the thinner cracks i climb on ....

And yet folks go on and on here and try to bash what is essentially a positive review with a few suggestion and comments

Calling me ignorant, dumb, etc ... For simply sugesting the book has more of a focus on certain areas !!!

MP for ya

;)

slim wrote:i don't really remember using the crack for feet that much on sentry box. i think i did a lot more small edging outside of the crack (to fight the lean, keep my feet out of the rope/gear, etc).

Left foot as high as possible, quick smear with the right, get the good pinky lock then immediately start walking the crack ASAP

Everyones beta is different of course

;)

BB...MUST...HAVE...LAST...WORD!!!!

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:It's OK to be a one trick pony when your only trick is Squamish. Still, a thinking man would acknowledge a world outside of there. Granite just climbs different. Take Soft Parade at Vedauwoo. .5 and .75 and climbs like a tight hand crack due to the flare. Or Bishops Crack in the Platte, perfect vertical splitter with no flare but since it's granite, there are feet all the way up it. Fact is, the feet outside the crack are just face climbing. You don't need to be THE SENDER to know that if there is a solid nub on the face that it's cool to step on it. Spending some time on what to do if there isn't a nub on the face, now you've entered the realm of the less obvious. So BB, are you upset that he left out the easy stuff? Did it irk you that he left out your favorite style? Or are you just trying to be contrary because it was so well received?

If you READ my original comment ... You will see that i simply pointed out that there was a focus on the larger sizes ... And that was fine by me

I was simply pointing out that fact which no one has in .... In a review thread

And suddenly folks like you get totally upset throwing around insults calling me names over what is essentially a positive review of the book

Other folks suddenly claim that you can learn everything thats not in the book in the smaller sizes in 20 min - 2 hours !!!

And demand to know what i think could be a bit better ... And when i give an honest answer ... They go on the warpath

Ive come to the conclusion that many MPers aint interested in an honest opinion of the book .... Which ive said over and over again is a FINE book and worth buying

4/5 stars is obviously not enough for MPers like u !!!

Youll attack anyone who doesnt declare it absolutely perfect

I suggest doing a page count of the different sections

Index

csproul wrote:BB...MUST...HAVE...LAST...WORD!!!!

It takes many folks who want to start fires to burn a bear

All folks have to say is "thanks for your positive review there, i find it great myself, the best thing since all u can eat sushi"

But thats impossible on MP

;)

Thanks everyone for your comments — keep them coming. If there’s a second printing I’ll have some new material to consider.

Relative to non-crack techniques: My vision for the book was to present techniques for jamming – basically focusing on anything you can do inside the crack or with the crack. It was my conscious decision to not include face climbing techniques. Commenters are correct in that for many cracks, especially finger cracks, face climbing and other techniques are not only efficient but necessary. However, I had to draw the line somewhere and I felt that face climbing is an extensive subject by itself that well covered in other references. The thin crack chapter is short because there simply are not many different ways to use your fingers and feet in the crack. That said, if I’ve overlooked techniques, please send them to me and I’ll be happy to include them in my encyclopedia and any future editions of the book. Maybe some more information on using the crack edge would be beneficial?

Relative to finger cracks: As the commenters have noted, the character of the rock makes a tremendous difference in the difficulty and how you climb finger cracks. At Squamish the rock is typically low angle and the difficult finger cracks are often because the cracks run out and you need to resort to face climbing. Climbing these typically requires finesse and thin-face footwork. In contrast at Indian Creek, finger cracks, especially splitters, are full-on cranks and quite physical. Techniques for these cracks are not especially technical (although squeezing even a little shoe rubber into the crack can be considered to be technical and is a tremendous benefit) and climbing them requires strength and endurance. Other distinct styles are: irregular steep cracks which often require technical moves, sequences, and strength; flaring cracks that require technical jams, precise footwork, and good body positions; and finger cracks with pods where you make long reaches and high steps. Each expression of finger cracks has its own mix of challenge and fun. Sometimes you use face features, sometimes you integrate lay away moves, sometimes you stem, and sometimes you use pure crack moves. My intent was to focus on the crack techniques to integrate into your climbing and allowing the climber to work out what is needed for each situation including non-crack techniques, rather than to present a cook book for every situation.

Relative to toes in 0.5 Camalot cracks: My intent was to state that the crack itself is too narrow to insert your toes. However, that does not mean that you could not use your feet/toes in wider spots such as flares and pods. Also, even if your toes don’t fit it is possible to squeeze some rubber into 0.5 Camalot cracks (especially if your shoe has a thin or chiseled profile which extends a bit beyond your toes) and this can be very helpful. It is basically a matter of semantics as to whether you consider a “flare” or “pod” to be “the crack” or a “feature” of the crack. My interpretation is that they are “features” of the crack. Also, when writing on the subject this approach presents a base condition (no toe jams) with variations. Consider that if the alternative approach was used it would result in complications when writing and confusion for the readers — similar to a double negative as in “you can jam your toes but not really.” This discussion and the relevant crack size of course is for climbers of average stature, and the applicable crack size is smaller for those with petite feet.

Kent

all i want to say is

thanks for the author for addressing my suggestions ... they werent criticisms ... but rather where i suggest the book may be a bit more useful for where i personally climb (and quite a few others do as well), and perhaps more material for the future editions ... and even then theres plenty thats useful for myself especially in the wider sections

its a fine book, and well worth buying ... but best used in conjunctions with other sources IMO as well ... the same way self coached climber is best used with more material ... or how mr longs anchor book is best used with more reference material as well .. this book is on par with those two in being the benchmark in their areas

i do apologize for the usual MP blowup for what was a positive review !!!

Ha, in the 80's Moffat flashed Equinox and didn't even place his custom printed and manufactured .5 (they reduced a #1 on a photocopier and Jerry hand filed for the correct cam log). Read the full story in his book, it's rather hilarious...

How far we've come...>? Chortle

...

Crack climbing is pretty simple. I just go by what Croft taught me eons ago, back in the early 90s. Thumbs up if possible for longer reach, thumbs down for torque if you can't thumbs up.

Most of u guys make things way to complicated, you just need to climb like guys did 30 years ago...it would actually still be kind of "cutting edge"...lol Just thinking about the footwear back then has me in stitches...heh

Who wouldn't want a flash of Phoenix (the 5.13 one in Yosemite) on their resume? Probably no one on MP has, even though it was 1st flashed in what, '83?

taipan jam wrote:Ha, in the 80's Moffat flashed Equinox and didn't even place his custom printed and manufactured .5 (they reduced a #1 on a photocopier and Jerry hand filed for the correct cam log). Read the full story in his book, it's rather hilarious... How far we've come...>? Chortle ... Crack climbing is pretty simple. I just go by what Croft taught me eons ago, back in the early 90s. Thumbs up if possible for longer reach, thumbs down for torque if you can't thumbs up. Most of u guys make things way to complicated, you just need to climb like guys did 30 years ago...it would actually still be kind of "cutting edge"...lol Just thinking about the footwear back then has me in stitches...heh Who wouldn't want a flash of Phoenix (the 5.13 one in Yosemite) on their resume? Probably no one on MP has, even though it was 1st flashed in what, '83?

Phoenix probably gets flashed fairly often. It's just not news any more so nobody notices.

Sure, Mark...

Looks to me at least on 8a and MP not so much tho.

No flashes on 8a. Surprising...of course Moffat never kept a scorecard there. Heh
mountainproject.com/scripts…

I guess my overarching point still remains...

And If you have flashed it, congrats, you are state of the art for the early 80s...chuckle

taipan jam wrote:Sure, Mark... Looks to me at least on 8a and MP not so much tho. mountainproject.com/scripts… I guess my overarching point still remains... And If you have flashed it, congrats, you are state of the art for the early 80s...chuckle

Me? I'm not even state of the art for the 60s, much less the 80s!

Seems like most hard cracks are done redpoint style these days. But it's only a matter of time till they get onsighted. Which will be pretty cool.

I'm out of my posts for the day. Good night all!

Mark E Dixon wrote: Me? I'm not even state of the art for the 60s, much less the 80s! Seems like most hard cracks are done redpoint style these days. But it's only a matter of time till they get onsighted. Which will be pretty cool. I'm out of my posts for the day. Good night all!

My apologies, I should have clarified, I was speaking to the "royal" you regarding flashing Phoenix, not you personally Mark.

But actually...Phoenix has been onsighted...

By guess who?

Peter Croft.

There's a big difference between the three, flash, onsight and redpoint...certainly everyone can agree here(?)

& I'm just not buying into Phoenix being "flashed fairly often" still...but I guess my attempt is still in the barrel! I just have to remember what Croft says...and climb as well as he did like 25 years ago...