Cobra Anchors -- Reviews?

Fixe is definitely selling the 3/8" Cobras on their website, and I talked to Kevin on the phone about them, and he is adamant they are more than strong enough...

Solace wrote: The safety issues are important and I am not encouraging kids to tackle climbing with a rope from Home Depot and a few 1/4 nail drives. But that being said, I want it to be accessible, to as many people as possible. Not just an elite few who can afford to place top of the line hardware all the time. I do worry that climbing will, on some level, migrate further from the average kid as things become more expensive. I have seen it in the outdoor industry in both skiing and backpacking.

We are not talking about "climbing" being accessible to the widest audience, we're talking about establishing new bolted routes. OK, you can expand that to include rebolting of old routes. I don't want the "average kid" doing this.

Gunkiemike,

I know how that sounded but I am not referring to kids bolting anything. I referring to them being exposed to the sport in a realistic approachable way.

Example, in Utah all 5th and 6th grade students can buy the "5th Grade Passport" for $45 which lets them ski each area in the state 3 times a year as a 5th grader and once a year as a 6th grader (gotta ween them off ya know)

They do this because kids are not skiing the way they once were. (They are the largest declining demographic in the sport) Parents cannot afford the entrance fee nor the equipment. Problem is, the kids get addicted to a sport they can't afford and once they are in 7th grade they are basically considered adults (12 and up) so it goes from a $45 season pass to &100 day ticket.

That is not realistic or approachable. So guess what, it doesn't work. Basically the parents of rich kids buy the passport, and the poor kids too but only the rich kids make it beyond the program. They would have gone either way so it fixes nothing.

I just don't want to see this happen to climbing as well. That's all. I am not insinuating that kids place our bolts. But it's a fact that if a child is not exposed to something in their youth, they are much less likely to pursue it as an adult. Chouinard was into falconry as a kid, and that's what got him to Yosemite. The gear he used in falconry was rudimentary at best. (Well documented) but the key was the exposure to the sport. If his falconry mentor would have said "I'm sorry Yvon, I don't have 25kn stainless bolts and hangers so we're just gonna have to use binoculars", where would Black Diamond be today?

Most of the guys we all consider to be larger than life, were guys who could essentially be homeless and still afford to climb and put up many of the über classic routes in the Valley. That is realistic and approachable. I do not believe that growing the sport means making it more expensive. I believe that growing the sport should mean making more opportunities available for more than just one demographic.

Alright, this thread has some real value outside of getting hijacked by Solace's romantic notions. What a load of crap. Here in the Wasatch, there's nary an easily accessed, decent line to bolt anymore. The poor kids that need cheap bolts are likely to equip some crap line that folks might have to maintain down the road. This will add to an already daunting backlog that the community is attempting to address. Shitty quality, low standard bolts will just usurp priority.

So, to summarize, Fixe is distributing the 3/8", plated steel, Cobra bolts that are comparable or even weaker than the newly engineered Powers/Rawl 5-Piece that they refuse to sell due to inappropriate strengths for climbing applications. Am I missing something here? The shear and tensile strengths look to be in the ballpark of the forces that potentially could be applied by a falling climber. Along with IME in SLC, how many other retailers are selling these bolts to the lowest common denominator?

To clarify, these are the same as these ?

Yes Evan, the picture is of the longer length but according to the description they are the same bolt . Great bolt, you'll want to go longer than 2 3/4 if placing in soft rock.

The VERY FIRST question any of you need to ask if "is this anchor ICC approved. If not, then move on. Cobras are NOT. They may be in the in the future, but they are not.

If anyone feels like buying a toaster or coffemaker to save $2.00 that is not UL rated and hope your house doesn't burn down and everyone inside killed, I'd be fine (assuming your house was far enough away from the neighbors that you only killed yourself) with that as I don't live with you. Such is generally not the case with wedge anchors. If the property is on your own land, feel free to have at it with any damned wedge anchor you choose. Otherwise, use ICC-ES rated Wedge Anchors, most of the major vendors have ICC-ES approval. Hilti, Powers, US Anchor, Simpson, Red Head etc etc. Not Cobras. I believe any 3/8" anchor is overkill. In either cases, local trends and customs are important, and what will work in the desert (drilled angles slammed into an undersized hole) might seem insane elsewhere. I usually bolt with both 3/8 and 1/2" wedge anchors - 18-8 (300 series) stainless. Depends what the rock is. I occasionally use 316. I believe that's overkill for our pure mt air, and we don't have limestone.

As climbers, we have a definitive lack of good discourse on this issue as we lack precision in our discussion. It's something which we should try working on. You can look up thread and read some of what I'm discussing. "Plated" bolts can mean many things. Zinc plating what is usually alluded to, but zinc comes in differing thicknesses, .0001/.0003 or .0003/.0005 etc etc. Plating can come with a Chromate overlay, Etc etc. These things matter and it can lead to some folks thinking one way and some folks thinking another. Saying "Plated bolts work" in a location describes nothing of what the plating actually is or who did the plating and to what standard. Regardless, I've been saying stainless stainless stainless to other climbers for many years and have felt like I've been swimming upstream. Nice to see that we are at least starting to see harmony on that issue now. Here's the next thing to get folks on board with: ICC-ES approval

Good luck!

howdy guys

may i suggest you all give cobra anchors a call and speak with a technical engineer ?

remember the working load / ultimate breaking strength factor

just because the bolt is threaded the entire way means nothing at all, unlike the powers ( blue sleeve) the cobra threads never come in contact with the hanger UNLESS you are still using 1/2 bolts with 3/8 hanger, an application that per manufactures specs is INCORRECT across the board.

the new SD powerbolt is built around a 1/4 bolt why would we as climbers go back to a 1/4 bolt ? especially with the corrosion factors we deal with. i dont care how strong they are rated to.

lastly i know developers with 40 years experience who have been using Cobra products for over ten years exclusively with no problems at all. they have been suggesting the anchors to me for years.

because something is sold in home depot means nothing guys, HILTI is sold at home depot and based on the decisions i have seen black & decker make since owning powers i would not be suprised if we see powers products in home depot soon.

BOTTOM LINE is as the user you guys should be contacting the MANUFACTURER for info and questions, do your due diligence and get info from the source

if you would like to discuss the product or voice concerns please call me

kevin daniels
fixehrdware 760 873 7505

I just want to point out that the Cobra bolt manufacture lists the working load at 750lb for shear, and 3000 for max breaking strength (and 700lb for pull, and 2800lb for max pull). That's a 12.5KN max breaking strength for the bolt. Those forces can be generated by a fall. Less than HALF the UIAA standard for climbing bolts.

Quoting a Petzl article on fall factor: "So, starting with our 9 kN maximum shock force with a dynamic rope, the force on the carabiner becomes 15 kN in a Fall Factor 1.9 fall. That's a lot. You better hope it's a good anchor or placement."
( camp4.com/rock/index.php?ne…)

Now obviously a 1.9 factor fall doesn't happen often. But, since the cobra's are non-stainless, as they rust, they will get weaker, and that breaking limit will be lower.
Just my two cents. I personally won't be using the new Powers+ bolts or the Cobra's as I don't think either are strong enough for climbing applications (and not stainless steel).

micah

based on your figures the new powerbolt is a 16.6 kn unit. and all the old powerbolts in this realm are in question.

thats a lot of bolts over many many years.

in 25 years i have yet to see a bolt shear off that ws not compromised due to corrosion.

stainless is the best option always

The old Power's 5-piece bolts (and the current SS powerbolt 5-pieces) are not in question, as the old style 3/8" Powerbolt is listed by Powers at 23KN for Max pull and 30KN for Max shear, both over the UIAA standard. (If they are carbon steel, that's a different matter... We are finding on the bolts we have been replacing that the bolts themselves are ok, but the sleeves have been extremely rusted, to the point of disintegrating when attempting to pull them out, which obviously creates a strength loss in pull out forces.)

The new Powerbolt+ is listed by Powers at 19KN and 17KN for Max Pull and Shear forces. Both of which, while not up to UIAA standard, are better than the Cobra bolt by far and are within a range of breaking strength that actually wouldn't really be possible to obtain on a climbing fall (unlike the cobra's). However, I do agree that the 1/4" bolt that is used for Powerbolt+ doesn't make cut it in a climbing application, so it makes sense not to use them for climbing for that reason alone, IMO.

Anyway, I've said my two cents, and it's up to others reading this to decide if they want to make the decision to use a lower quality, non-stainless bolt on their routes, and leave the expensive, time consuming work of rebolting their line in the inevitable future to other climbers, or if they want to spend a little more and put up a line with SS bolts, so that other climbers don't have to fix a problem later.

micah

i remember you now, you called me and we spoke for quite a while. our conversation was quite extensive and included allot of information that goes beyond me just stating " the cobra product is more than strong enough "

that was not the statement i made at all and lacks allot of information!!

i had no idea you were an administrator at mountain project or what your intentions were

that said i believe your goal is to protect climbers and thats great ! mine too has always been.

so I will again review the 3/8 Cobra product with my engineers, cobra engineers, my attorney and my insurance company

thanks for efforts, next time please be a little more forthcoming when question me or my business and if your going to post quotes i have made make sure you include all the pertinent information that was discussed.

You guys could always buy these bolts.

I don't always place bolts, but when I do I always make sure they are pre-corroded. It's like pre-gaming right?

Micah Klesick wrote: The new Powerbolt+ is listed by Powers at 19KN and 17KN for Max Pull and Shear forces. Both of which, while not up to UIAA standard, are better than the Cobra bolt by far and are within a range of breaking strength that actually wouldn't really be possible to obtain on a climbing fall (unlike the cobra's). However, I do agree that the 1/4" bolt that is used for Powerbolt+ doesn't make cut it in a climbing application, so it makes sense not to use them for climbing for that reason alone, IMO.

Chris Vinson with ClimbTech here. Micah makes some excellent points. I would like to add that we've seen people use the new powerbolt+ with both success and failure. The 1/4" bolt is now G8 as opposed to the G5 of old. Its a thinner bolt to accomodate a much thicker sleeve but it relatively close in strength by definition. A thicker sleeve is a good thing, i hope we can agree. A thinner bolt is not...

Micah Klesick wrote: However, I do agree that the 1/4" bolt that is used for Powerbolt+ doesn't make cut it in a climbing application, so it makes sense not to use them for climbing for that reason alone, IMO.

Your opinions are duly noted and this bolt is under review here at CT based on the opinions stated in this thread. We've done some informal in house testing...we will follow this up with more in house.

You must use a torque wrench! If you don't there is an inherent possibility of over tightening any bolt. These are no exception.

the only 'failures' that i have seen with the older powers bolts / rawl 5 pieces have been where the installer tightened them excessively and popped the heads off. i have seen maybe 5 of these or so. going down in diameter on something where the torsional shear is so finnicky seems like a really bad idea.

bolts that use nuts (as opposed to a head) for tightening are less likely to do this, but the projection of the stud is pretty non-optimal for clipping, biner hang up, etc.]

it seems like going up to 1/2" would be the way to go, but there are always trade offs.

Wow Slim, you have actually seen that out in the field?!

WTF wrench are people using to tighten bolts, because when I use a torque at home to get (re remember the feel…) and then try to turn the bolt with a small wrench I would use in the field, it is damn (99%) near impossible to hit the say 12 foot pounds. In other words, once I tighten the bolt with the torque, and then try with my lil wrench, I can hardly even budge the thing to tighten it anymore!

Will be psyched to see how these new products evolve. I sure do love the 5piece bolt!

that's a good reason for using a little wrench! i think some folks think tighter is better (which it is to a certain extent...). at one small crag in the platte, i noticed two sheared off bolts (the first 2) and found the heads on the ground below. not sure what sort of wrench was being used there or how hard it was being reefed on.

Damn! Thanks… Can't believe you actually got to see that, scary!

Kevin Daniels aka KD wrote:howdy guys may i suggest you all give cobra anchors a call and speak with a technical engineer ?

Why would we need to call them? Why can't we believe their technical literature that shows that the ultimate breaking strength is way too low? Are they disagreeing with their own literature? Really???

I don't typically call Black Diamond or Petzl to ask them how strong their products REALLY are...I rely upon their printed literature. Why is Cobra different?