Broken Cam thread

mountainproject.com/v/alien…
Not just x4s..... im happy with the three i have (0.3-0.5)
If a c4 break its just bad placement but if a x4 break its suddenly a manufacturing failure. Gotta remember how small they are. I see a lot of yellow ones but they are like really small. Atleast to me...

Remember that 0.1 0.2 and 0.3 are single axle without stoppers while
0.4 0.5 and 0.75 are stacked. Havent seen many fails in the stacked ones.

superflyjt24 wrote:One totally sees a disproportionate amount of x4s in the hands of gumbies- this is not myth.

one day at the gunks will prove this

superflyjt24 wrote:One totally sees a disproportionate amount of x4s in the hands of gumbies- this is not myth.

While this may be true overall there is context to this thread. Two out of the three cams from the original post were placed by AMGA Single Pitch Instructors. Say what you want about that cert but at the very least they weren't placed by gumbies.

KrisFiore wrote: While this may be true overall there is context to this thread. Two out of the three cams from the original post were placed by AMGA Single Pitch Instructors. Say what you want about that cert but at the very least they weren't placed by gumbies.

I wouldn't say that someone who takes a 3 day course whose main prerequisite is "comfortable climbing 5.8 on top rope" has too much credibility on making solid small cam placements or determining whether a "failed" placement was due to a design problem.

Dr. Long Arm wrote: I wouldn't say that someone who takes a 3 day course whose main prerequisite is "comfortable climbing 5.8 on top rope" has too much credibility on making solid small cam placements or determining whether a "failed" placement was due to a design problem.

Huh? AMGA SPI have to do a lot more than top rope a 5.8 to be certified.

Old Sag wrote: Huh? AMGA SPI have to do a lot more than top rope a 5.8 to be certified.

I thought the same thing so I looked it up online and was really surprised by their "minimum prerequisites"

Prerequisites:
◾You have a genuine interest in rock climbing and instructing novices on single pitch crags.
◾You are at least 18 years old at the time of the course.
◾You have at least 12 months prior climbing experience.
◾You are an active climber with traditional lead climbing experience (leader placing pro).
◾You have led a minimum of 15 traditional rock climbing routes (any grade).
◾You are capable of comfortably climbing 5.8 while on a top rope.

amga.com/single-pitch-instr…

Old Sag wrote: Huh? AMGA SPI have to do a lot more than top rope a 5.8 to be certified.

Yes, one is often asked to lead a single pitch 5.5. But as far as gear placement goes, that's the extent of the cert.

Interesting.

reboot wrote: Yes, one is often asked to lead a single pitch 5.5. But as far as gear placement goes, that's the extent of the cert.

While on paper that might be the case there really is more to it than that. Between the course and the exam you must consistently build anchors using instructor's specifications regarding location and gear.

For example, the instructor might give you only x number of slings, x number of biners, and give you a 4-foot section of rock to work with to build a bomber anchor.

I get it, by minimum standards SPI does not mean you are more knowledgable than someone with 10 years of trad climbing. No doubt. But it does mean you have a dedication to the sport more than a gym climber who recently turned to the outdoors or a gumby with shiny new gear looking to practice.

The climb is an 11d that I've worked on a ton. I realize in a vacuum these statements can all be dismissed but it's just context to use for the conversation.

PJHeinz83 wrote: I thought the same thing so I looked it up online and was really surprised by their "minimum prerequisites

This is very misleading. These are the prerequisites to take the COURSE.
To take the EXAM you must have the following:

You are a current member of the AMGA.
You have successfully completed an AMGA Single Pitch Instructor Course.
You have led a minimum of 40 traditional routes, most of which should be 5.6 and on a variety of rock types.
You are able to comfortably lead 5.6 traditional routes, which means you place protection.
You are able to comfortably climb 5.8 on top rope.
The SPI Assessment can be taken directly following the SPI Course if the candidate successfully completed the course and meets the assessment prerequisites. However, it is highly recommended that the SPI Course candidate take time practicing and consolidating the skills learned on the course before assessment (6-12 months).

I think your error was just an honest mistake but there is a difference. Again, a trad climber with 10 years of experience would be better suited than someone who meets these minimums but at an SPI isn't a gumby throwing gear around to see what sticks.

My spi exam involved leading a very steep traditional 5.8, onsight, in Joshua Tree. Not exactly the Rostrum, but not exactly a "gimme" either since it had to be done with a ton of crap hanging off the harness (we were expected to build a bombproof anchor top-side, then another a few feet over, then build a student rappel rig). One candidate actually whipped on their client, although I didnt get to see it. I did see more than one elvis leg shakin' their way up the route though.
The exams might not always be as tough as mine was, but you get the point. spi's know their stuff.

Also, instructors will literally tear your anchors apart if they dont like what they see. And they will fail you if you are not 100% proficient in gear placement.

Ive seen some SPIs get tested up here and know a few

Basically it means ur generally not incompetent, can get out of a few situations and know how to build safe anchors

Beyond that it doesnt mean much

Theyre a dime a dozen up here

;)

"Basically it means ur generally not incompetent, can get out of a few situations and know how to build safe anchors

Beyond that it doesnt mean much

Theyre a dime a dozen up here."

Its not supposed to mean more than that. Actually thats exactly what its supposed to mean! :)
The spi cert is held by climbers with a wide array of experience and skill, but they all have met the minumum requirements necessary to operate safely and professionally. And for the cert to be considered "active", the climber must also have current wilderness first responder certification.
Few climbers have any medical knowledge, let alone training....

And yes, some places they are a dime a dozen. But nation-wide, there are only about 900 people holding the cert. Pretty small club if you ask me.

It basically means you can go set up a rope for a client on a single pitch route

And do some basic rescue if things go wrong

Wether is 90, 900 or 900,000 that have em it doesnt mean much

Thousands of folks do the same every day, they just dont have that piece of paper

Not if yr talking about full rock guides or that imfga shiet ... Thats another story

;)

I actually helped a partner prepare for a SPI test this year

I had to refresh his memory on the munter mule

Im not saying the course is bad ... Just that it doesnt mean very much

If youve been climbing trad every weekend for 5+ years at the ~5.10 level and practices basic rescue ... Then yr more likely more "experienced" than many a newly minted SPIers

SPIers get very defensive about their "exclusive certification"

Like i said thousands of folks do the same thing every day for the last few decades

It simply means yr NOT INCOMPETENT for bringing up clients on a single pitch

;)

A newly minted SPI has more in their toolbox that climbers with more than a decade of SOLID experience??!

Really?

Thats just plain arrogance

I helped my partner on the "stuck rappel" part with the releasable abseil ... Any climber with decent experience worth their salt should be able to get someone down on a stuck rappel for example

Now granted most experienced climbers dont focus on rescuing total newbies ...

But to claim a fresh SPIer is better than a solid experienced climber is just plain stupid

And none of that matters in terms of this thread ... Placing proper gear on lead nd making sure it doesnt walk

Unless ur whipping on a 5.8 on ur SPI test

;)

I know all sorts of climbers, experienced and not. Total noobs to decades deep. Practically none of them have actually focused on developing their skills as a guide. They are focused on becoming better climbers. But spi's have been exposed to the mind-set of what it means to be a guide, which puts them way ahead of most climbers in that respect.

I did the whole SPI thing after a few years of climbing. I definitely learned a lot, but that was six years ago now and in hindsight I was still a newb after completing the course. Almost a decade of trad climbing now and I know it's that experience that has made me safe and competent whether I'm with a trusted partner going for the send or with a new friend that needs to be guided.

Alex Bury wrote:Dude...read my post before calling me stupid. I know all sorts of climbers, experienced and not. Total noobs to decades deep. Practically NONE of them have actually focused on developing their skills as a GUIDE. They are focused on becoming better climbers. There are plenty of SPI's who are not exactly seasoned trad masters....and to that Id agree. But they have been exposed to the mind set of what it means to be a good guide, which puts them way ahead of most climbers in that respect. As far as arrogance...whats arrogant is pretending to know about the course when you obviously dont know shit!

Yr stupid !!! =P

A spi doesnt mean yr GOOD, just not incompetent

Arrogance is in believing yr "special" and have more in your toolbox than solid climbers with a decade of experience just because u took a course and test for SINGLE PITCH instruction

Theres plenty if SPIs around here ... It doesnt really mean very much

Protestations in da intrawebs notwithstanding

;)

Alright gents, which end do I lay my giant c&*k on this yard stick? Oh and, how does one tell which is the guide at a party?

Seriously, we are not talking about guiding here now are we? The simple fact is SPI cert (I understand instructors/examiner has a lot of discretion so there is a a lot variability) doesn't say a whole lot about experience/competency of gear placement (yes, you are probably not incompetent).