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Tough Schist - Anyone own this?

Original Post
Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507

Greetings easterfolk,

I was wondering if anyone had a copy of Tough Schist ( vermontrock.com/) that I could thumb through sometime. I'm really curious about what is in there, as it appears to cover a lot more than what MP has to offer regarding vermont. I am more than willing to make some sort of trade to get a look at this thing.

Things I'm willing to trade:
1. A belay in Rumney or other relatively local area
2. A beer at the common cafe in Rumney

Thanks!

DR · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2014 · Points: 922

Eli send me an email and I'll be happy to give you the run down. We can also set up a time for you to flip through it if need be.

Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507

Will do, I'm not sure if PM's are working right now though.

Kristen Fiore · · Burlington, VT · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 3,383

Tough Schist is a solid guidebook if you have some familiarity with the area. It has a TON more than what is on MP.

Also worth noting that the website (Vermontrock.com) has a bunch of additions that fill in the gaps as the guidebook being printed caused a flurry of new activity now that we weren't as worried about crossing over other people's obscure lines.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Travis put a ton of effort into writeing the book and money out of his own pocket. Sack up and buy a copy!! especially if you ever want a new updated edition to come out!

Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507
Nick Goldsmith wrote:Travis put a ton of effort into writeing the book and money out of his own pocket. Sack up and buy a copy!! especially if you ever want a new updated edition to come out!
Being that I don't climb in Vermont a lot (never), I wanted a look at it's content to determine whether or not I was going to buy one and check out Vermont's climbing opportunities. It isn't really about sacking up...
Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

it's about the culture of wanting everything for free on the internet.. i am pretty much adamant these days that i do not want rout descriptions on MP. if we keep putting the stuff up on the internet where its usually very incomplete with little or no history sooner rather than later there will be no real guide books. there will be no history and a huge part of climbing will simply dissapear into cyberspace. support real guide authors....

Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507
Nick Goldsmith wrote:it's about the culture of wanting everything for free on the internet.. i am pretty much adamant these days that i do not want rout descriptions on MP. if we keep putting the stuff up on the internet where its usually very incomplete with little or no history sooner rather than later there will be no real guide books. there will be no history and a huge part of climbing will simply dissapear into cyberspace. support real guide authors....
Hey man, I'm not going to argue with you about this. Your point is totally valid, and I do support guidebook authors when I feel the need to buy the guidebook. I am asking to look at a book so I can decide whether I want to buy it and support the author, or if I don't want to check out climbing in Vermont.

I hope you have a lovely evening spending time on this wonderfully useful website,

Eli
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Nick Goldsmith wrote:it's about the culture of wanting everything for free on the internet...
Tone it down tough guy. THIS thread has nothing to do with that, and it is/was very clear. But if you feel the need to climb on the soap box anyway, have fun. The rest of us are off to go climbing.
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
Nick Goldsmith wrote:i am pretty much adamant these days that i do not want rout descriptions on MP. if we keep putting the stuff up on the internet where its usually very incomplete with little or no history sooner rather than later there will be no real guide books. there will be no history and a huge part of climbing will simply dissapear into cyberspace. support real guide authors....
We mind as well not answer any route related questions either. When do your (arbitrary) standards begin/end? Please do tell so the climbing world gets immediately aligned with them.

You've effectively come to a free online climbing resource and said what's done here is bunk and hurting the climbing community and/or the authors of climbing guides. Good luck finding much (any) support for taking down MP.
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616

Eli, my impression from paging through the VT guide (it's a good guide, fwiw) is that most of the climbing is on the stiffer side, even by today's standards. In other words, not many moderates (how's that defined nowadays? anything under 5.10?). Seeing in your profile you're leading 11c sport there's plenty there for you.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0

You get what you pay for. The quality of the data in the respective places is directly proportional to what it costs.

Seth Maciejowski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 688

Not too many moderates in VT due to the character of the rock. Schist tends to get REALLY vegetated when it gets less than 90 degrees. Lots of sport climbing, primarily in the 5.10 - 5.12 range distributed across Bolton and smugglers. If you like granite slabs marshfield and wheeler fit the bill with most of the climbing being mixed bolts and trad 5.7-5.11. There are a lot more routes in the guide then on MP and I know travis has a bunch of guidebooks just sitting on a pallet in his basement just waiting for your order....

Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

Yup from what I've read, it's a good resource/guidebook.
Even though I haven't climbed in vermont in summer yet, I picked up the guidebook in Montreal just to verify info on MP submission and I'm probably going to hit Bolton area a few times this summer/fall.

Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

Nick, the problems with hard-copy guidebooks and the old way (I started climbing in '89, before there was any real functional WWW or modern browsers) are:

1. It's one person's opinion/take on things like quality and ratings.
2. Quickly obsolete, as they might get updated once per decade, if that.
3. Often missing critical info.
4. Guidebook author has almost never climbed everything in the book, so #3 above becomes rampant.
5. Take a ton of time and effort to write, for little to no financial return for the author unless the place is wildly popular like Yosemite, or in your neck of the woods, Rumney.

Collaborative efforts like MP have new routes, consensus ratings, good rack info, are continually updated, and so on.

It's not about wanting something for free. I still buy some hard copy guides because I like the book itself, or want something that doesn't depend on a phone signal or battery life. But I also contribute plenty of routes, beta, etc on this website.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
Nick Goldsmith wrote:.. if we keep putting the stuff up on the internet where its usually very incomplete with little or no history sooner rather than later there will be no real guide books. there will be no history and a huge part of climbing will simply dissapear into cyberspace. support real guide authors....
Well use that improve this page button to make it more complete. If you know the history, add it in the comments. I like individually written guidebooks, but crowd sourcing the information can be very powerful.

Archival questions are legit. Hopefully MP is being archived well so if it ever goes defunct the info will still be available. I often wonder if we get hit by a big solar storm or EMP how much information built up over human history will be lost because there is no hard copy. Of course in those conditions we will probably all starve to death anyway.
Eric8 · · Maynard, MA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 310

I bought Tough Schist, maybe there is lots of great climbing in Vermont but I haven't been convinced its worth the drive yet. Maybe I will make the drive to Wheeler someday.

Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507

I'd also like to point out that a lot of history is actually revived with mountainproject, if I only had a guidebooks I wouldn't know nearly as much about climbing in my area.

Eli Buzzell · · noco · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 5,507
M Sprague wrote: Well use that improve this page button to make it more complete. If you know the history, add it in the comments. I like individually written guidebooks, but crowd sourcing the information can be very powerful. Archival questions are legit. Hopefully MP is being archived well so if it ever goes defunct the info will still be available. I often wonder if we get hit by a big solar storm or EMP how much information built up over human history will be lost because there is no hard copy. Of course in those conditions we will probably all starve to death anyway.
It will be like going back to the 90's! The dark ages!
Kristen Fiore · · Burlington, VT · Joined Sep 2014 · Points: 3,383
Eric8 wrote:I bought Tough Schist, maybe there is lots of great climbing in Vermont but I haven't been convinced its worth the drive yet.
You just haven't drank the juice yet...
Kevin Heckeler · · Las Vegas, NV · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,616
M Sprague wrote: Well use that improve this page button to make it more complete. If you know the history, add it in the comments. I like individually written guidebooks, but crowd sourcing the information can be very powerful. Archival questions are legit. Hopefully MP is being archived well so if it ever goes defunct the info will still be available. I often wonder if we get hit by a big solar storm or EMP how much information built up over human history will be lost because there is no hard copy. Of course in those conditions we will probably all starve to death anyway.
Burn it to CD/DVD/Bluray. They're not magnetic so would survive such events. [keep in mind the machines that play them back for us would be inop, since they have their programming stored in memory that would be wiped, but someday when they're reprogrammed they would be able to retrieve the 'lost' information]

Whether we survive, as you say, is a completely different story. :p
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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