ATC-Guide wire popped out

Ray Pinpillage wrote: RP's cables are brazed into the brass heads.

After doing some reading, they are made with silver brazing, which also goes by another name- silver soldering.

Regular tin solder is obviously not as strong as silver, but it has strength, and the keeper cable on your ATC doesn't need to hold a 10kN fall.

I had this happen too. That loop is not weight bearing, just looks glued in. I took some accessory cord and tied a keeper loop on to it through both the holes on the ATC guide.

Patrick Shyvers wrote: After doing some reading, they are made with silver brazing, which also goes by another name- silver soldering. Regular tin solder is obviously not as strong as silver, but it has strength, and the keeper cable on your ATC doesn't need to hold a 10kN fall.

The distinction between solder and braze is melting point. Coincidentally melting point and yield strength correlate which is why I pointed out your RP's are not soldered. Not to mention silver solder is not silver braze, the former being non load bearing with a lower melting point. With that being said, aluminum is relatively difficult to solder correctly. The OP would be better served using adhesive as suggested by others if he chooses to repair the ATC himself.

Greg D wrote:Load bearing and important are different.

True...and do you understand "critical"?

Greg D wrote: I love people that state "no functional use" and then state a purpose. And then go on to say "I would guess" while giving advice. I know some people think I'm a jerk. Whatever. I could just speew info. I prefer people think before posting.

Mike didn't say no functional use. He said no critical purpose. I believe that is correct.

Greg D wrote:Load bearing and important are different.

You refuse to state why YOU think its important. You might think the paint on your car is important but you won't die if it gets scratched.

Patrick Shyvers,

You cannot solder to aluminum, and ATC Guides are made of aluminum. The guide is probably anodized, and even if it is not then it has a continuous oxide layer. This layer prevents the filler metal from entering the pores of the aluminum. This is the primary function that soldering and brazing rely on to work.

Furthermore, brazing would require a specialized flux to remove the oxide layer of the aluminum.

To further deflect your arguments, stating that, "I have done a lot of soldering" does not provide a credible source nor argument. How are you qualified to comment on the strength of any material?

I stand by my recommendation of purchasing a new guide. However if you must home repair go with epoxy.

grog m wrote:Patrick Shyvers, You cannot solder to aluminum, and ATC Guides are made of aluminum. The guide is probably anodized, and even if it is not then it has a continuous oxide layer. This layer prevents the filler metal from entering the pores of the aluminum. This is the primary function that soldering and brazing rely on to work. Furthermore, brazing would require a specialized flux to remove the oxide layer of the aluminum.

I agree that soldering aluminum & the use of special fluxes is beyond a novice practitioner. I wasn't advising he do it. I just object to your original notion that solder joints have no mechanical strength. If they had none, then why are pipes sometimes joined with solder?

grog m wrote:To further deflect your arguments, stating that, "I have done a lot of soldering" does not provide a credible source nor argument. How are you qualified to comment on the strength of any material?

Are my comments any less qualified than yours?

I'm not saying anybody should be taking a whip on tin solder. Just that a good solder joint possesses enough mechanical strength to easily support 88g, the weight of an ATC Guide, which is about the most load it will experience. Is that really an extraordinary claim? I would think it common knowledge to anyone who has done much soldering, but if you are truly in disbelief I can find studies...

grog m wrote:I stand by my recommendation of purchasing a new guide. However if you must home repair go with epoxy.

I agree with these things.

Greg D wrote: Since weight savings is so important in the market place do people really believe it's only purpose is to clip it to your harness when you could just clip straight through one of the two or more holes in it? Sometimes I prefer to provoke thought. Go belay your girlfriend, wife or daughter without it. Then report back.

The only thought you are provoking is that you are an idiot!

every single thread. why. just why.

Stagg54 wrote: The only thought you are provoking is that you are an idiot!

Thank you for your intelligent contribution. I've always admired your knowledge. But you have outdone yourself this time.

Greg D wrote: Thank you for your intelligent contribution. I've always admired your knowledge. But you have outdone yourself this time.

I asked for a simple explanation and you keep dodging it. Makes me think you don't have a clue what you are talking about. At the very least, your definition of critical is way different than mine (and probably doesn't match up with Webster's either).

Greg D wrote: Since weight savings is so important in the market place do people really believe it's only purpose is to clip it to your harness when you could just clip straight through one of the two or more holes in it? Sometimes I prefer to provoke thought. Go belay your girlfriend, wife or daughter without it. Then report back.

My wife doesn't climb but I have belayed my kids many times with an old ATC that had the keeper wire totally pull off and I had replaced it with some thin perlon.

Weight is not the issue (witness Gri-Gris). What is an issue is that you fail to understand the physics or the difference between critical and convenience.

Jesus Christ, ever use an old-style Sticht plate? They had no cable or keeper cord, worked on the same principle as an ATC, and worked just fine.

Just get a Grigri before you drop someone.

Tim Kuss wrote: Just get a Grigri before you drop someone.

I've used many ATCs over the years (Petzl, BD, Alpidex, Rock Empire, Salewa, Edelrid, DMM). They all have the same limits and fuction well within them. My advise? Belay with a GriGri, rapel on an ATC. I've been dropped twice on ATCs from hitherto good belayers. I've seen 5 others dropped and 1 sort off dropped. Anyway...

Actual safety features of the keeper wire:

• stops the ATC moving up the rope on while lead belaying creating unpredictable friction or loops
• stops the ATC wandering away from rappeler during rappel, especially when ropes of different diameters or different constructions are use (joined ropes, tag lines etc.)
• in guide mode stops the holding carabiner from twisting 180 degrees when skinny ropes (see safety advice for Kong GiGI or updated advice for Edelrid Megajul in Guide Mode)
• stops the ATC sliding down the rope if you belay direct of the anchor on a multipitch (as many Europeans do)
• stops the holding carabiner moving around (too much) when the ATC is used a progress capture device/emergency ascender creating cross loading

Additions value

• makes ATC less easy to drop
• provides more racking options
• means ATC can remain always clipped to either the harness or extension while rope is being loaded into ATC prior to rappel
• it mostly always fails before the ATC and forces cheapskates to replace the device

Would I repair a wire? Sure, but with glue only. Even then I'd be unhappy. Would the glue stay? Will it melt and soil my rope or harness? Will it be blobby? Will my climber partners notice it and stop trusting me?
Solder? No way in hell! I wouldn't re-heat up the ATC after is has been factory forged. And, you would strip the coating from the wire. It protects the rope, your hands and your other gear in your back pack.

Noel Z wrote:

I've used many ATCs over the years (Petzl, BD, Alpidex, Rock Empire, Salewa, Edelrid, DMM). They all have the same limits and fuction well within them. My advise? Belay with a GriGri, rapel on an ATC. I've been dropped twice on ATCs from hitherto good belayers. I've seen 5 others dropped and 1 sort off dropped. Anyway...

Actual safety features of the keeper wire:

• stops the ATC moving up the rope on while lead belaying creating unpredictable friction or loops
• stops the ATC wandering away from rappeler during rappel, especially when ropes of different diameters or different constructions are use (joined ropes, tag lines etc.)
• in guide mode stops the holding carabiner from twisting 180 degrees when skinny ropes (see safety advice for Kong GiGI or updated advice for Edelrid Megajul in Guide Mode)
• stops the ATC sliding down the rope if you belay direct of the anchor on a multipitch (as many Europeans do)
• stops the holding carabiner moving around (too much) when the ATC is used a progress capture device/emergency ascender creating cross loading

Additions value

• makes ATC less easy to drop
• provides more racking options
• means ATC can remain always clipped to either the harness or extension while rope is being loaded into ATC prior to rappel
• it mostly always fails before the ATC and forces cheapskates to replace the device

Would I repair a wire? Sure, but with glue only. Even then I'd be unhappy. Would the glue stay? Will it melt and soil my rope or harness? Will it be blobby? Will my climber partners notice it and stop trusting me?
Solder? No way in hell! I wouldn't re-heat up the ATC after is has been factory forged. And, you would strip the coating from the wire. It protects the rope, your hands and your other gear in your back pack.

You forgot one important safety feature....after a long rappel, those little fuckers get hot and you don't want to be grabbing them to remove the ropes so you can be off rappel. 

Noel Z wrote:

Actual safety features of the keeper wire:

• stops the ATC moving up the rope on while lead belaying creating unpredictable friction or loops

If your brake strand is in the brake position, this can't happen. That is to say, if you're using proper belay technique, this can't happen.

• stops the ATC wandering away from rappeler during rappel, especially when ropes of different diameters or different constructions are use (joined ropes, tag lines etc.)

If your brake strands are in the brake position, this can't happen. And your brake strands have to be in the brake position, because if they aren't you're not rappelling, you're free falling down the rope.

• in guide mode stops the holding carabiner from twisting 180 degrees when skinny ropes (see safety advice for Kong GiGI or updated advice for Edelrid Megajul in Guide Mode)

I am not sure what the safety problem with having it rotate with those devices because I'm not really familiar with those devices, but I don't think there's any safety issue here with an ATC guide.

• stops the ATC sliding down the rope if you belay direct of the anchor on a multipitch (as many Europeans do)

If your brake strand is in the brake position... getting redundant here.

• stops the holding carabiner moving around (too much) when the ATC is used a progress capture device/emergency ascender creating cross loading

It really doesn't prevent this in any way, which is why there are a plethora of anti-cross-loading carabiners on the market. I'm not sure where you get this idea from.

Would the glue stay?

Yes, if you use appropriate glue.

Will it melt and soil my rope or harness?

No, if you use appropriate glue.

Will it be blobby?

Not if you apply it with basic competence.

Will my climber partners notice it and stop trusting me?

If they do, then you're probably safer, because those partners really have very little idea of how an ATC works. I prefer to have partners who understand how their gear works.

Maybe check the temperature range of your glue before doing it, but I'm pretty sure almost any super glue will work for this situation.

While it's a bit off-topic, and I've no qualifications beyond having actually tried it, solder joints do have quite a lot of mechanical strength, in my experience.

I've DIY'd micro brass nuts with wires (1.5 mm galvanized steel, rated at 2kn) soldered in with plain lead-free electronics solder (into 10mm deep holes in the brass) and, while I haven't whipped on them, they have held up to some very aggressive bounce-testing: at least a minute of harsh jumping and stomping in aid ladders, trying to make them fail. Given what's been written about forces generated from hard bounce-testing I'd expect these nuts to hold up towards 4kn (although I probably wouldn't think of them as more than bodyweight pieces if I were to actually climb on them, YGD and all that).

David K wrote:

If your brake strand is in the brake position, this can't happen. That is to say, if you're using proper belay technique, this can't happen.

If your brake strands are in the brake position, this can't happen. And your brake strands have to be in the brake position, because if they aren't you're not rappelling, you're free falling down the rope.

I am not sure what the safety problem with having it rotate with those devices because I'm not really familiar with those devices, but I don't think there's any safety issue here with an ATC guide.

If your brake strand is in the brake position... getting redundant here.

It really doesn't prevent this in any way, which is why there are a plethora of anti-cross-loading carabiners on the market. I'm not sure where you get this idea from.

Yes, if you use appropriate glue.

No, if you use appropriate glue.

Not if you apply it with basic competence.

If they do, then you're probably safer, because those partners really have very little idea of how an ATC works. I prefer to have partners who understand how their gear works.

Maybe check the temperature range of your glue before doing it, but I'm pretty sure almost any super glue will work for this situation.

The safety conscious climber should ignore David K's post. It paints a static picture of someone just standing there with their brake hand below the device. Okay, he's right, it's where it belongs. But reality is more dynamic and therefore less predictable. All ATC style device manufacturers know this and go to the expense of adding the keeper wire. It adds a lair of predictability by limiting the ATCs movements. The brake hand is also the hand which, together with the other hand, takes in slack and pays it out. It is sometimes, if somewhat briefly, slightly above or at least level with the ATC. Paying out slack fast creates rope cache loops and the ATC will travel a bit until it is snapped back into position. Just look at the keeper wire and a well-used ATC and you'll see marks in diferrent areas, like at the boot of the keep wire's loop. The marks illustrate how the ATC wants to move around. While lead belaying I once had a broken pine cone stick in the rope below. It entered the belay plate from below while paying out slack to a rope-hungry leader clipping high. The belay plate travelled up the rope at least to my sternum. That climber then fell and I came closer to dropping him because they was very little friction due to huge cache loops. I don't belay with a plate anymore and because I used to I bought an ATC as soon as Petzl brought on out back in the day. I could see straight away how evolved it was in comparsion. I recognised the keeper wire's value straight away. 

Never follow the advice of someone in a forum advocating less safety presenting themselves as someone knowing more than a manufacturer. The manufacter put there to fill a safety gap, which was highlighted through accidents or near accidents like mine. The manfacturer never recommends repair. I only repair gear if it's integrity only effect me and never gear on which my partner's safety is dependent. It's just bad ethics. Just imagine the surviving relative state of mine when they read the bit in the accident report where David K has glued the keeper wire back onto his ATC with which he belayed his fatal partner. 

I belay in regional competitions in Germany where we belay according to IFSC guidelines using nearly always an ATC-style device. An IFSC judge would never allow a repaired ATC or one without a cable. Never. According to Dave K, he wouldn't climb with that judge because, according to his logic, they "don't understand how gear works". Laugh?.. I nearly cried!