?Never fallen on cams?

I am curious why every cam for sale seems to have avoided being fallen on. First, who cares? Second, who tracks this sort of thing? I might have some cams I haven't wipped on but I couldn't point to them. Do people keep a log? Seriously, this seems like a bunch of bs. It seems more likely that most "never fallen on cams" are really just cams the sellers aren't worried about selling / are in decent shape? It seems unneccisarly to assert that the cam hasn't done the thing it was designed to do.

Well, actually taking a hard fall on a cam can and will sometimes destroy them. They will hold, but it can really bend the hell out of them and depending on the forces involved they can break. This is especially true in the smaller sizes. So it's an important part of the sale information. You wouldn't want that information hidden. Now if the cam survived and the fall was negligible, then that's different.

Think of it as just part of their condition. New in box, used but never fallen on, hard whippers on multiple days out and barely usable: a continuum of conditions.

I also find it funny how often you see cams for sale that have barely been used. I think what people mean when they say, "this gear has never been fallen on," is "i have never fallen on my gear."

Rock pro, ice tools and screws, backpacks, boots - i am consistently amazed at how many people invest in expensive climbing gear that they never wind up using, but then this is how those companies make enough money to fund future development, which I benefit from directly, so whatever.

As someone who has a pathological fear of wasting money and who never buys gear unless i know for a fact that i am going to use it in the immediate and continued future, I just don't understand these people. but then I have bought a good 40% of my climbing gear from these types, so again, I'm not complaining.

This is my hypothesis:

Sometimes you buy things with grand plans, which don't end up happening.
(eg: home fitness equipment being used exclusively to dry clothing)

As you use things, you extract value (through use) out of them. If you've hardly used something, you've extracted little to no value from it. The purchase was a mistake, you've hardly touched the damned thing and having it hang around the house unused isn't making your life any better.

As its in great condition, there is an opportunity to reclaim some of your lost money, compensating financially for your mistake, but also freeing your mind from any reminder of the mistake afterwards.

So, the less you've used something, and the better condition something is in, the more you feel compelled to sell it.

Hence second hand cams will have a tendency to be in great condition.

Metolius pull tests all their cams to 50% of rated strength. For most of their cams this is significantly higher than the load in most falls.

Falls in general do not damage well placed cams.

Many people lead climb well below their potential and so never fall. I climbed for two years in my 40's and never fell.

patto wrote:Metolius pull tests all their cams to 50% of rated strength. For most of their cams this is significantly higher than the load in most falls. Falls in general do not damage well placed cams.

I think that's the point to me, Metolius pull tests their cams while they are evenly loaded in perfect placements. But I've had cams get bent and twisted while they're awkwardly loaded by my second on top rope or hanging on them statically (if they aren't placed well). A never fallen on cam has never been fallen on while placed badly.

I personally mark gear that has sustained a hard shock load, including ropes. All gear has a finite life under even the best conditions.

We have always called this the "Texas Closet Condition"....in on-line retail if you are not trying to market climbing gear and clothes to folks who really don't climb, you will fail. I have always speculated that most Texans who claim to be climbers, dream of Everest and/or Denali, etc....talk about climbing and/or the hazards of such incessantly at Dallas parties, etc.....have more $$$ worth of gear, rock, ice, alpine, boots, down suits, arc teryx, etc. in their closet than most any guide of ski, rock, ice or alpine will. Many folks I know who have a full rack, don't want to fall on their gear and list their abilities several grades higher at sport than trad. There is this guy on summitpost, a pure hiker (but has always referred to himself as a climber and his scramble routes as climbs). He thought he had the climbing bug, works out of the DC area as I recall. Because he has a "job", he bought a full rack and I mean X4s, C4's, even off set X4's, hexes, nuts, you name it...he bought it... last fall. Of course he is selling it all now...his eyes were just bigger than his stomach so to speak. Many of these cams I see advertised, just by the photo alone, appear to fall into this category and is a more direct explanation of what folks who advertise "never fallen on".

I hope you guys don't give yourselves elbow tendonitis patting yourselves on the back about how much more aggressively you climb than these sellers you're talking about.

You can almost always tell when cams have repeatedly taken decent falls or seem other hard usage

- lobes will be worn, especially on smaller cams with softer metal

- the stem may well be slightly (or more) kinked

- the thumb loop on cams without doubled (camalot) slings may develop a kink

A real life fall and placement (which are often not lab "perfect") often leaves telltale signs if u look for em

;)

jaredj wrote:I hope you guys don't give yourselves elbow tendonitis patting yourselves on the back about how much more aggressively you climb than these sellers you're talking about.

^^Somebody had to do it, well done

jaredj wrote:I hope you guys don't give yourselves elbow tendonitis patting yourselves on the back about how much more aggressively you climb than these sellers you're talking about.

Well played

Dow Williams wrote:We have always called this the "Texas Closet Condition"....in on-line retail if you are not trying to market climbing gear and clothes to folks who really don't climb, you will fail.

Lame...

John Tex wrote:Texas closet condition... That's great.

What's up with this prejudice against Texans? On the opposite, percentage-wise I've met way many more hard climbers from Texas than from the entire time I lived on the East Coast. If I think about it, every climber I've personally met from Texas climbs really hard. El Jeffe is from Texas, there are many hard climbers on Mountain Proj who are from Texas. Half of Boulder is from Texas. Try googling up "Team Texas Climbing". I'm pretty sure percentage-wise, Texas is way up there at producing hard climbers.

doligo wrote:I'm pretty sure percentage-wise, Texas is way up there at producing hard climbers.

Oddly enough percentage-wise, Texas also seems way up there at producing people who can't take a joke about Texas.

Dow Williams wrote:We have always called this the "Texas Closet Condition"....in on-line retail if you are not trying to market climbing gear and clothes to folks who really don't climb, you will fail. I have always speculated that most Texans who claim to be climbers, dream of Everest and/or Denali, etc....talk about climbing and/or the hazards of such incessantly at Dallas parties, etc.....have more $$$ worth of gear, rock, ice, alpine, boots, down suits, arc teryx, etc. in their closet than most any guide of ski, rock, ice or alpine will. Many folks I know who have a full rack, don't want to fall on their gear and list their abilities several grades higher at sport than trad. There is this guy on summitpost, a pure hiker (but has always referred to himself as a climber and his scramble routes as climbs). He thought he had the climbing bug, works out of the DC area as I recall. Because he has a "job", he bought a full rack and I mean X4s, C4's, even off set X4's, hexes, nuts, you name it...he bought it... last fall. Of course he is selling it all now...his eyes were just bigger than his stomach so to speak. Many of these cams I see advertised, just by the photo alone, appear to fall into this category and is a more direct explanation of what folks who advertise "never fallen on".

Here comes Dow Williams the "best 5.10 climber in the world", to spray about how superior he is compared to people from Texas. Sorry to break it to you but there are lots & lots of climbers from Texas that actually climb really hard, climb all around the world, and do stuff you could only dream of, and at the same time are really nice people. Get off your high horse before you fall off.

jaredj wrote:I hope you guys don't give yourselves elbow tendonitis patting yourselves on the back about how much more aggressively you climb than these sellers you're talking about.

Haha, yes!!

eli buzzell wrote:Oddly enough percentage-wise, Texas also seems way up there at producing people who can't take a joke about Texas.

You guys always make my time at work more enjoyable.

Iceman wrote: Here comes Dow Williams the "best 5.10 climber in the world", to spray about how superior he is compared to people from Texas. Sorry to break it to you but there are lots & lots of climbers from Texas that actually climb really hard, climb all around the world, and do stuff you could only dream of, and at the same time are really nice people. Get off your high horse before you fall off.

Seriously? None of this, Dow's comments or mine or anyone's, is about someone being superior to someone else. People spend tons of money on stuff they never use and it's ridiculous, from an environmental standpoint it's a real problem, and having a virulent hatred for consumerism it kind of irks me.
Texas is sort of the epitome of this because there is almost no climbing there, yet many Texans think they are climbers (granted, any Texan can leave Texas and become a good climber somewhere else).
This is not particular to climbing, basically anytime you have a stupid, wasteful, excessively American phenomenon, Texans will do it bigger and badder than everyone else.
Oh, and a lot of the kids on Team Texas are not from Texas.

If I could beat my cock as hard as you guys beat your chests I would never leave the house.

I enjoy reading this thread even though I don't buy used cams or ropes.

Iceman wrote: Here comes Dow Williams the "best 5.10 climber in the world", to spray about how superior he is compared to people from Texas. Sorry to break it to you but there are lots & lots of climbers from Texas that actually climb really hard, climb all around the world, and do stuff you could only dream of, and at the same time are really nice people. Get off your high horse before you fall off.

Pipe down Iceman. How fast can YOU climb Dream of Wild Turkeys, post some sweet pics on Summit Post, and then trash talk visiting Red Rock climbers on the Proj? Not as fast as Dow? That's what I thought.

Out of 13 cams that i own I have only fallen on 2 of them, hung from 2 of them, and used 1 for aiding past part of a route. I rarely climb trad at my level, i generally like long (600ft +) easy trad routes so i don't expect to fall on the gear. I will leave the falling to bolts.

Alot of people buy gear but never use it much. I got a ton of gear when i first started climbing from a friend who had big plans than realized he only climbed when i was climbing yet i climbed twice as much with other people so i bought all his gear to start my rack.