Metolius recommends not yanking upwards on passive pro to remove?
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So I just got me some Metolius Curved Hexes delivered, and I noticed in the "Passive Protection" manual that came with them: |
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I think you'd have to yank very hard to kink the cable. I find a quick upward "yank" (flip) is the easiest way to get a nut out. I wouldn't worry about kinking the cable. |
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The cables on nuts will indeed get kinked when pulled upward hard. Those kinks will eventually break a strand or two of the cable. You will notice this over time and can replace affected nuts accordingly (more because you want to avoid stabbing your fingers with broken strands than because of the very slight reduction in strength...). |
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Metolius uses the stopper as a swage for the cable, so yes, pulling up and out will kink the cable more so on these types of stoppers then a BD stopper, for example. |
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Always hated climbing with partners that would yank nuts upward, by the end of a long climb, the nut cable would all be kinked. Tap upward with a nut tool and lift it out, will make your nuts last longer. |
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I yank up on the nut all the time to remove them and I have yet to kink a cable. As others said, you would probably have to yank quite hard. Typically I dont need to yank that hard and if I do, I use a nut tool. |
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Eric and Lucie wrote: Note that pulling up is also a very good way to get a nut stuck.^ This is the real problem. Metolius Curve Nuts and other "stoppers" with a lengthwise groove (like DMM) will often get jammed in place if the nut is rotated upwards by tugging up on the sling/cable. I tell folks that clean my gear "I didn't put it in with the cable pointing up then rotate it downwards. so don't expect/try to take it out that way". Nuts go in with the cable pointing downward (typically), and then a tug sets them. Removal is the pure opposite: push the nut up to unseat it, then carefully remove it. This is Nutcraft 101 people. Short version - I won't climb a second time with a second who rips nuts upward to remove them. It's just ignorant of the placement dynamics. And lazy. Disclaimer - this might work OK with WC Rocks and BD nuts, but it'll get Metolius and DMMs stuck. |
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Is this a new verses old thing? I'm an old tradie and back in my time yanking gear was the exception not the norm. |
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A light outward or upward yank on nuts to "unstick" them from their placement is a-ok. It's probably ony slightly more force than the rope drag was adding as the leader made progress. Once the nut is unstuck, you can simply lift it out of the placement just as it went in. if I see that a light/med yank won't unseat the placement I switch to a nut tool to avoid major kinking etc |
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Mark Thesing wrote:Is this a new verses old thing? I'm an old tradie and back in my time yanking gear was the exception not the norm.Longitudinal grooves are somewhat recent (like within the last 15-20 years). BITD all WC and Chouinard/BD nuts could be safely cleaned by yanking upwards. They still can. I suspect the folks who can't appreciate the subtleties that cleaning nuts sometimes requires are the same folks who can't seem to figure out how Tricams work. |
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Yank on my DMMs upward and you'll owe me sone nuts pretty quickly cause I'll get pissed waiting for you trying to unjam them after that. |
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I have a bootied DMM-type grooved nut, and it comes out without a nut tool and strategic yanking all the time. I find that the rock and shape of the crack make a lot of difference. |
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Luc wrote:Yank on my DMMs upward and you'll owe me sone nuts pretty quickly cause I'll get pissed waiting for you trying to unjam them after that. Even the offsets won't come out that easy when properly placed. It actually scares me knowing a yank would be enough to pull out my pro. It might also depend on what type of cracks you have to contend with.+1 on that. That's one way to not get an invite back to climb trad with me... I'll mention it once or twice, but after that... I've had two climbing partners bring me back nuts with the wires deformed and frayed from them trying to clean them by yanking up on them like crazy, and one partner got one stuck and locked in. And both of them had nut tools, and I'd told them both NOT to yank up the on nuts. Nuts go in slotted most of the time, so they should come out the same way... yanking up cams them further most of the time and jams them tighter. I'm totally cool with lifting up on the wire to seem how its slotted, and if its loose enough to get out without a tool, but if its tightly wedged, yanking up is not cool. |
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+1 for the yanking on my nuts being uncool crowd. |
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The people yanking on the nuts are likely also the ones setting them the hardest. |
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if yr cleaning at a pumpy crux ... folks yank up on nuts all the time ... if the nut is set REALLY well then youll need to yank pretty hard, or fiddle with that nut tool while pumping out eventually kinked wires can lead to broken wires DMM gray brass offset ;) |
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Can't really go with you on this one... bearbreeder wrote:if yr cleaning at a pumpy crux ... folks yank up on nuts all the time ..Yes, incompetence is rife out there. bearbreeder wrote:if the nut is set REALLY well then......and is happening more than once in a frigging blue moon then find a different partner. bearbreeder wrote:as to "setting" nuts ... folks on da intrawebz will yap away and argue till they are blue in the face ...It really isn't a matter of arguing - it's a matter of craft. bearbreeder wrote:...the question to ask yourself is are you willing to trade off ease of cleaning for a greater certainty of the nut staying put ... especially in offset flaring placements where setting it hard can matter...The question is whether greater certainty of your nuts staying put is worth investing the time to actually learn to glance at placements and get the optimal placement first time so you don't have to set the shit out of it. It also helps if you take the time and bother to learn to sling appropriately. The more marginal the placement then I would think the more it would be worth it to people to invest in learning to place decent gear. bearbreeder wrote:...as to the nuts being a bit kinked being a "tell sale" of poor climbers ...LOL...anyone who uses offsets regularly and whips on em will have kinked wires eventually ... especially the brass offsetsNot really unless they kink in the fall, otherwise no. Fallen on my offsets repeatedly and maybe one out of a hundred has ever kinked an HB offset. It's possible you might butcher one getting it out after a fall, but I'd chalk that up to bad placements most of the time as well. So maybe a wire, possibly two on a free-climbing rack being kinked is going to happen through falls; all or most of the wires kinked - fucking bail, I don't care who it is or what their rep is. Again, it's a craft and not everyone 'gets it'. |
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Healyje wrote:Can't really go with you on this one... Yes, incompetence is rife out there. ...and is happening more than once in a frigging blue moon then find a different partner. It really isn't a matter of arguing - it's a matter of craft. The question is whether greater certainty of your nuts staying put is worth investing the time to actually learn to glance at placements and get the optimal placement first time so you don't have to set the shit out of it. It also helps if you take the time and bother to learn to sling appropriately. The more marginal the placement then I would think the more it would be worth it to people to invest in learning to place decent gear. Not really unless they kink in the fall, otherwise no. Fallen on my offsets repeatedly and maybe one out of a hundred has ever kinked an HB offset. It's possible you might butcher one getting it out after a fall, but I'd chalk that up to bad placements most of the time as well. So maybe a wire, possibly two on a free-climbing rack being kinked is going to happen through falls; all or most of the wires kinked - fucking bail, I don't care who it is or what their rep is. Again, it's a craft and not everyone 'gets it'.we can "argue" about what is "competent" till everyone is blue in their intrawebz faces you wont always have a nice and fine stances when placing (or cleaning) in a pumpy lead to fiddle with that offset into that "perfect placement" which may well not exist not to mention that you might not have the absolute perfectly fitting gear for that particular placement as you may well have used it up earlier or simply not have it for that particular multi what i find is that folks who argue that they always place every piece of gear absolutely perfectly with no exceptions ... are generally not climbing anywhere near their physical limit on pumpy climbs especially onsight that is not to say one should place shiet or poor gear ... but if yr climbing at yr absolute limit, you will place the occasional gear that is less than perfect ... not to mention you will eventually have to make less than perfect placements simply because you used up the "perfect" gear heres dave macleod setting a nut pretty well with a few good yanks at 5:40 in ... while i dont know him personally i suspect he knows a thing or two about gear ... if i had that placement you bet id give it a few yanks too dave mcleod, tim emmet pembroke youtube.com/watch?v=petpTei… ;) |
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bearbreeder wrote:...i suspect he knows a thing or two about gearThat's an assumption I wouldn't make and the 'tubes don't bolster your case any. And in the case of the climb and pro at 5:40 - we're talking Brit headpointing where half the time the pro is more psychological than actual. That piece he places and tugs a couple of times on (as opposed to yarding on it) at 5:40 - what odds would you give for that holding a significant fall regardless of how he placed it? Or the one to the left of it for that matter? Again, quality of gear placements and climbing ability are not particularly linked in any way, shape or form. I know guys who can solo 5.13 and [literally] can't place pro to save their life roped on a 5.8. Well, aside from the fact next to no one ever climbs at their 'absolute limit', climbing somewhere near that vicinity on FAs is the reason I invested in getting good at placing gear. I will add, though, that seconding my own pitches while multipitch, free rope-soloing quickly drove home the need to develop a much lighter touch given I was 'dogfooding' the cleaning. Having developed it to the point where I don't general set pro - or only set it ever so slightly with two fingers until I feel the first drag of friction - I might be a little intolerant in this regard. Then again, my experience was it was well worth the investment to really get it all down, particularly so for when I find myself improvising marginal or less-than-optimal placements on a hard FA. |
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Healyje wrote: That's an assumption I wouldn't make and the 'tubes don't bolster your case any. And in the case of the climb and pro at 5:40 - we're talking Brit headpointing where half the time the pro is more psychological than actual. That piece he places and tugs a couple of times on (as opposed to yarding on it) at 5:40 - what odds would you give for that holding a significant fall regardless of how he placed it? Or the one to the left of it for that matter? Again, quality of gear placements and climbing ability are not particularly linked in any way, shape or form. I know guys who can solo 5.13 and [literally] can't place pro to save their life roped on a 5.8. Well, aside from the fact next to no one ever climbs at their 'absolute limit', climbing somewhere near that vicinity on FAs is the reason I invested in getting good at placing gear. I will add, though, that seconding my own pitches while multipitch, free rope-soloing quickly drove home the need to develop a much lighter touch given I was 'dogfooding' the cleaning. Having developed it to the point where I don't general set pro - or only set it ever so slightly with two fingers until I feel the first drag of friction - I might be a little intolerant in this regard. Then again, my experience was it was well worth the investment to really get it all down, particularly so for when I find myself improvising marginal or less-than-optimal placements on a hard FA.that gentleman isnt some uberkid were talking about ... but one of britains more experienced trad climbers in his prime ... he can place pro to save his life =P youtube.com/watch?v=KFYUqCr… heres Beat Kammerlander on a 8b+ giving a few good yanks on a micronut he placed 5:50 in .... i suspect that old geezer knows a thing or two about placing nuts Beat Kammerlander "Prinzip Hoffnung" youtube.com/watch?v=FH82iIp… ;) |
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I give almost every nut I place a light to moderate jerk. (Cams too.) I like to think I don't overdo this (I don't yard on them), and the fact that I haven't placed a nut that became fixed in more than twenty years suggests I'm on the right track. (Honestly, I don't think I've ever placed a nut that became fixed, but remembering more than twenty years back is problematic...) The only exception to setting with a jerk is nuts that have been dropped down behind a constriction and can't possibly lift out. |