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Metolius recommends not yanking upwards on passive pro to remove?

Original Post
Orphaned · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 11,560

So I just got me some Metolius Curved Hexes delivered, and I noticed in the "Passive Protection" manual that came with them:

"Try to avoid cleaning nuts or hexes by yanking upward on the cable. This kinks the cable, which weakens it. If you can't wiggle the piece up out of its placement, use a nut tool."

Just about all the trad climbers I've seconded with have suggested pulling upward on passive gear, particularly nuts, to pull them out.

Are these climbers misinformed of how to properly take care of their gear? Or is there something more to this?

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

I think you'd have to yank very hard to kink the cable. I find a quick upward "yank" (flip) is the easiest way to get a nut out. I wouldn't worry about kinking the cable.

Eric and Lucie · · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 140

The cables on nuts will indeed get kinked when pulled upward hard. Those kinks will eventually break a strand or two of the cable. You will notice this over time and can replace affected nuts accordingly (more because you want to avoid stabbing your fingers with broken strands than because of the very slight reduction in strength...).

As you noticed yourself, most of us use this technique all the time. It is often the fastest, most efficient way of removing a nut. As long as the pull is reasonable, damage to the cable is negligible.

I say don't worry about it; just inspect your gear from time to time and replace anything that looks suspicious.

Note that pulling up is also a very good way to get a nut stuck. Always inspect the placement by eye first to ensure there is a clear path out of the placement above the nut. If the placement looks more "complex", avoid pulling on the cable at all; use gentle hand action first, then a nut tool if that fails.

tradvlad · · SLC, UT · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 5

Metolius uses the stopper as a swage for the cable, so yes, pulling up and out will kink the cable more so on these types of stoppers then a BD stopper, for example.

Highlander · · Ouray, CO · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 256

Always hated climbing with partners that would yank nuts upward, by the end of a long climb, the nut cable would all be kinked. Tap upward with a nut tool and lift it out, will make your nuts last longer.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

I yank up on the nut all the time to remove them and I have yet to kink a cable. As others said, you would probably have to yank quite hard. Typically I dont need to yank that hard and if I do, I use a nut tool.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Eric and Lucie wrote: Note that pulling up is also a very good way to get a nut stuck.
^ This is the real problem. Metolius Curve Nuts and other "stoppers" with a lengthwise groove (like DMM) will often get jammed in place if the nut is rotated upwards by tugging up on the sling/cable. I tell folks that clean my gear "I didn't put it in with the cable pointing up then rotate it downwards. so don't expect/try to take it out that way". Nuts go in with the cable pointing downward (typically), and then a tug sets them. Removal is the pure opposite: push the nut up to unseat it, then carefully remove it. This is Nutcraft 101 people.

Short version - I won't climb a second time with a second who rips nuts upward to remove them. It's just ignorant of the placement dynamics. And lazy.

Disclaimer - this might work OK with WC Rocks and BD nuts, but it'll get Metolius and DMMs stuck.
Mark Thesing · · Central Indiana · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 60

Is this a new verses old thing? I'm an old tradie and back in my time yanking gear was the exception not the norm.

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,885

A light outward or upward yank on nuts to "unstick" them from their placement is a-ok. It's probably ony slightly more force than the rope drag was adding as the leader made progress. Once the nut is unstuck, you can simply lift it out of the placement just as it went in. if I see that a light/med yank won't unseat the placement I switch to a nut tool to avoid major kinking etc

The idea that your second needs to use a nut tool on every placement is highly inefficient, a PITA for the follower and possibly a hint your nut craft needs improvement.

Nuts are pretty burly and pretty inexpensive in broad picture. The gain in speed from some yanking far outweighs longevity and cost savings one might gain from babying your nuts. ( there's a good joke in there somewhere)

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Mark Thesing wrote:Is this a new verses old thing? I'm an old tradie and back in my time yanking gear was the exception not the norm.
Longitudinal grooves are somewhat recent (like within the last 15-20 years). BITD all WC and Chouinard/BD nuts could be safely cleaned by yanking upwards. They still can.

I suspect the folks who can't appreciate the subtleties that cleaning nuts sometimes requires are the same folks who can't seem to figure out how Tricams work.
Luc-514 · · Montreal, QC · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 12,506

Yank on my DMMs upward and you'll owe me sone nuts pretty quickly cause I'll get pissed waiting for you trying to unjam them after that.
Even the offsets won't come out that easy when properly placed.
It actually scares me knowing a yank would be enough to pull out my pro.
It might also depend on what type of cracks you have to contend with.

Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 81

I have a bootied DMM-type grooved nut, and it comes out without a nut tool and strategic yanking all the time. I find that the rock and shape of the crack make a lot of difference.

Using a tool to pamper a nut out may be nutcraft 101.

Getting nuts out without a tool is nutcraft 201 ;-).

Micah Klesick · · Charlotte, NC · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 3,971
Luc wrote:Yank on my DMMs upward and you'll owe me sone nuts pretty quickly cause I'll get pissed waiting for you trying to unjam them after that. Even the offsets won't come out that easy when properly placed. It actually scares me knowing a yank would be enough to pull out my pro. It might also depend on what type of cracks you have to contend with.
+1 on that. That's one way to not get an invite back to climb trad with me... I'll mention it once or twice, but after that... I've had two climbing partners bring me back nuts with the wires deformed and frayed from them trying to clean them by yanking up on them like crazy, and one partner got one stuck and locked in. And both of them had nut tools, and I'd told them both NOT to yank up the on nuts.
Nuts go in slotted most of the time, so they should come out the same way... yanking up cams them further most of the time and jams them tighter.
I'm totally cool with lifting up on the wire to seem how its slotted, and if its loose enough to get out without a tool, but if its tightly wedged, yanking up is not cool.
Sean Brady · · Boulder, Colorado · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 125

+1 for the yanking on my nuts being uncool crowd.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

The people yanking on the nuts are likely also the ones setting them the hardest.

Both the oversetting and yanking up are a clear sign of a lack of craft, a complete absence of finesse, and a inability to see how to match the geometry of the nut to the topology of placements such that nuts need little to no setting. It also typically means they are cleaning from a less than optimal stance and not the one used to place the nut.

I've know a few guys with 40+ year "uber trad" reputations who never learned to place or clean nuts worth a damn. They regularly mangle and fix more nuts than you can shake stick by blindly yanking up on them without even a cursory glance at, or the slightest interest in, how the nut went in to begin with. It's mindless hackery plain and simple and still makes me cringe every single time I see it. Oh, and don't believe a single rationale or justification for nut yanking because it's all total horseshit - ditto for yarding the shit of them when setting them.

And this is exactly the sort of thing at the heart of a previous comment that - even back in the day - 5-10% of folks were artisans with pro, another 35-40% competent, and the rest nervously awaiting the dawn of sport climbing. How so? Some weren't interested in jinking around with gear, some lacked the requisite spatial visualization skills, some could just never develop confidence in their gear, and others were happier following than leading for a variety of reasons. Bottom line is: not everyone is or can be good with pro.

But fuck, if you can't be bothered with - or are incapable of - figuring out how a nut was placed and reversing it then please, at least have the common decency of using your own now ratty, jingus rack instead of debauching someone else's. And, if you're eyeing a new trad partner, try to get a look at their rack and if all their nuts are torqued at an angle just under the nut then try to politely bow out, definitely use their rack, and gear up for knowing seconding is going to be heavy suckage if you do leave the ground with them.

Jesus H. Crikey - did I mention I really hate that shit.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

if yr cleaning at a pumpy crux ... folks yank up on nuts all the time ... if the nut is set REALLY well then youll need to yank pretty hard, or fiddle with that nut tool while pumping out

the alternative is to hang on the rope, which might not always be possible if the leader didnt protect a wandering pitch properly for the second, or if the crux is off the deck/ledge where rope stretch can mean broken ankle

as to "setting" nuts ... folks on da intrawebz will yap away and argue till they are blue in the face ...

the question to ask yourself is are you willing to trade off ease of cleaning for a greater certainty of the nut staying put ... especially in offset flary placements where setting it hard can matter ...

as to the nuts being a bit kinked being a "tell sale" of poor climbers ...LOL

anyone who uses offsets regularly and whips on em will have kinked wires eventually ... especially the brass offsets

heres a few pics from the folks at outdoorgearlab offset reviews (supertopo) ... guess they (chris mac) REALLY dont know how to place gear ....





eventually kinked wires can lead to broken wires

DMM gray brass offset

;)
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

Can't really go with you on this one...

bearbreeder wrote:if yr cleaning at a pumpy crux ... folks yank up on nuts all the time ..
Yes, incompetence is rife out there.

bearbreeder wrote:if the nut is set REALLY well then...
...and is happening more than once in a frigging blue moon then find a different partner.

bearbreeder wrote:as to "setting" nuts ... folks on da intrawebz will yap away and argue till they are blue in the face ...
It really isn't a matter of arguing - it's a matter of craft.

bearbreeder wrote:...the question to ask yourself is are you willing to trade off ease of cleaning for a greater certainty of the nut staying put ... especially in offset flaring placements where setting it hard can matter...
The question is whether greater certainty of your nuts staying put is worth investing the time to actually learn to glance at placements and get the optimal placement first time so you don't have to set the shit out of it. It also helps if you take the time and bother to learn to sling appropriately. The more marginal the placement then I would think the more it would be worth it to people to invest in learning to place decent gear.

bearbreeder wrote:...as to the nuts being a bit kinked being a "tell sale" of poor climbers ...LOL...anyone who uses offsets regularly and whips on em will have kinked wires eventually ... especially the brass offsets
Not really unless they kink in the fall, otherwise no. Fallen on my offsets repeatedly and maybe one out of a hundred has ever kinked an HB offset. It's possible you might butcher one getting it out after a fall, but I'd chalk that up to bad placements most of the time as well. So maybe a wire, possibly two on a free-climbing rack being kinked is going to happen through falls; all or most of the wires kinked - fucking bail, I don't care who it is or what their rep is. Again, it's a craft and not everyone 'gets it'.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Healyje wrote:Can't really go with you on this one... Yes, incompetence is rife out there. ...and is happening more than once in a frigging blue moon then find a different partner. It really isn't a matter of arguing - it's a matter of craft. The question is whether greater certainty of your nuts staying put is worth investing the time to actually learn to glance at placements and get the optimal placement first time so you don't have to set the shit out of it. It also helps if you take the time and bother to learn to sling appropriately. The more marginal the placement then I would think the more it would be worth it to people to invest in learning to place decent gear. Not really unless they kink in the fall, otherwise no. Fallen on my offsets repeatedly and maybe one out of a hundred has ever kinked an HB offset. It's possible you might butcher one getting it out after a fall, but I'd chalk that up to bad placements most of the time as well. So maybe a wire, possibly two on a free-climbing rack being kinked is going to happen through falls; all or most of the wires kinked - fucking bail, I don't care who it is or what their rep is. Again, it's a craft and not everyone 'gets it'.
we can "argue" about what is "competent" till everyone is blue in their intrawebz faces

you wont always have a nice and fine stances when placing (or cleaning) in a pumpy lead to fiddle with that offset into that "perfect placement" which may well not exist

not to mention that you might not have the absolute perfectly fitting gear for that particular placement as you may well have used it up earlier or simply not have it for that particular multi

what i find is that folks who argue that they always place every piece of gear absolutely perfectly with no exceptions ... are generally not climbing anywhere near their physical limit on pumpy climbs especially onsight

that is not to say one should place shiet or poor gear ... but if yr climbing at yr absolute limit, you will place the occasional gear that is less than perfect ... not to mention you will eventually have to make less than perfect placements simply because you used up the "perfect" gear

heres dave macleod setting a nut pretty well with a few good yanks at 5:40 in ... while i dont know him personally i suspect he knows a thing or two about gear ... if i had that placement you bet id give it a few yanks too

dave mcleod, tim emmet pembroke

youtube.com/watch?v=petpTei…

;)
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422
bearbreeder wrote:...i suspect he knows a thing or two about gear
That's an assumption I wouldn't make and the 'tubes don't bolster your case any. And in the case of the climb and pro at 5:40 - we're talking Brit headpointing where half the time the pro is more psychological than actual. That piece he places and tugs a couple of times on (as opposed to yarding on it) at 5:40 - what odds would you give for that holding a significant fall regardless of how he placed it? Or the one to the left of it for that matter? Again, quality of gear placements and climbing ability are not particularly linked in any way, shape or form. I know guys who can solo 5.13 and [literally] can't place pro to save their life roped on a 5.8.

Well, aside from the fact next to no one ever climbs at their 'absolute limit', climbing somewhere near that vicinity on FAs is the reason I invested in getting good at placing gear. I will add, though, that seconding my own pitches while multipitch, free rope-soloing quickly drove home the need to develop a much lighter touch given I was 'dogfooding' the cleaning. Having developed it to the point where I don't general set pro - or only set it ever so slightly with two fingers until I feel the first drag of friction - I might be a little intolerant in this regard. Then again, my experience was it was well worth the investment to really get it all down, particularly so for when I find myself improvising marginal or less-than-optimal placements on a hard FA.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Healyje wrote: That's an assumption I wouldn't make and the 'tubes don't bolster your case any. And in the case of the climb and pro at 5:40 - we're talking Brit headpointing where half the time the pro is more psychological than actual. That piece he places and tugs a couple of times on (as opposed to yarding on it) at 5:40 - what odds would you give for that holding a significant fall regardless of how he placed it? Or the one to the left of it for that matter? Again, quality of gear placements and climbing ability are not particularly linked in any way, shape or form. I know guys who can solo 5.13 and [literally] can't place pro to save their life roped on a 5.8. Well, aside from the fact next to no one ever climbs at their 'absolute limit', climbing somewhere near that vicinity on FAs is the reason I invested in getting good at placing gear. I will add, though, that seconding my own pitches while multipitch, free rope-soloing quickly drove home the need to develop a much lighter touch given I was 'dogfooding' the cleaning. Having developed it to the point where I don't general set pro - or only set it ever so slightly with two fingers until I feel the first drag of friction - I might be a little intolerant in this regard. Then again, my experience was it was well worth the investment to really get it all down, particularly so for when I find myself improvising marginal or less-than-optimal placements on a hard FA.
that gentleman isnt some uberkid were talking about ... but one of britains more experienced trad climbers in his prime ...

he can place pro to save his life =P

youtube.com/watch?v=KFYUqCr…

heres Beat Kammerlander on a 8b+ giving a few good yanks on a micronut he placed 5:50 in .... i suspect that old geezer knows a thing or two about placing nuts

Beat Kammerlander "Prinzip Hoffnung"

youtube.com/watch?v=FH82iIp…

;)
rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I give almost every nut I place a light to moderate jerk. (Cams too.) I like to think I don't overdo this (I don't yard on them), and the fact that I haven't placed a nut that became fixed in more than twenty years suggests I'm on the right track. (Honestly, I don't think I've ever placed a nut that became fixed, but remembering more than twenty years back is problematic...) The only exception to setting with a jerk is nuts that have been dropped down behind a constriction and can't possibly lift out.

My experience is that nuts can be placed with an eye to both security and removal, and that when this is done, setting them is not a problem.

As for cleaning, I don't jerk up on brass nuts with the wires soldered into the head. I've been using Metolius Curve nuts for years and often jerk up on them to get them out quickly. I've never kinked the wires doing this. Perhaps it is time to turn the tables and say that with experience, you develop a sense for what nuts will come out easily and without wire kinking with a nice upward jerk?

As for not turning a nut upside down to remove it, I recall trying to remove a nut a few years ago for maybe ten minutes without any success. I could get it loose but could not find a path out. I reluctantly gave up and my partner went down for a try. He turned the nut completely upside down and removed it in thirty seconds. My mindset was so fixed on not inverting the nut that I didn't even see that possibility.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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