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Two Way Radio

Original Post
K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

my gf has been pushing for us to use radios, and for a while I avoided it, but recently we did a rope stretcher pitch that stretched the rope so tight that our rope tug system (7 tugs means on belay--to avoid confusion with normal tugging) didn't work at all. There was also rope drag making tugs hard. So basically radios will probably happen. I studied for the ham radio license and can get it if I want. I basically want a radio that will be best able to handle situations where the climber goes out of line of sight (still within 200 ft). Any advice? I was looking at the Yaesu vx3, baofeng uv3r, Yaesu vx6/7, baofeng uv5r. Some of the latter have a lot more watts in a slightly larger package. The vx3 is tiny which I like, but if it's tiny and doesn't work well it's worthless. Also I was wondering about the baofeng construction quality being plastic and will it hold up to climbing. Then again if the tougher Yaesu can't withstand climbing, that would be really bad because it would be expensive to replace.

Also is there any other option for communicating besides cell phones and rope tugs and yelling? Like maybe another type of radio I'm not aware of?

Scott Scharfenberg · · Santa Barbara, CA · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 15

Don't think too hard about two-way radios. Get something inexpensive, just make sure it has sub-channels. That way when you're on a serious aid line in the Valley and all the normal channels are clogged with tourist chatter you can still communicate with your belayer.

My friends and I use these.

Nick Venechuk · · Golden, CO · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 60

I recently picked up a pair of Motorola Talkabouts for BC skiing and such. Can't say how they compare to the models you're considering but they're light and work great. First day of use I was glad I had them as my buddy lost a ski and I was able to help him find it without standing around wondering where he was for an hour. Definitely a convert to the 'radios are good' camp.

I've never taken radios climbing, but now that I have them I might consider it, at least on bigger alpine climbs.

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

The little FRS/GMRS or MURS radios are probably going to serve you best. Ham is overkill if you're just talking to your partner on-route.

I use ham, but that's mostly because I'm already a licensed ham with a few radios.

If you're interested in ham and have money, the vx3 would be awesome. The ft60r is a nice cheaper workhorse choice. The baofeng uv5r is entirely functional but simple and not very nice- it's the nissan versa of radios. If you get a baofeng, I'd suggest you focus on the uv5r, as it is by far and away the most common & popular.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Pontoon wrote:Also is there any other option for communicating besides cell phones and rope tugs and yelling? Like maybe another type of radio I'm not aware of?
Yeah, work out a system and leave the radio toys at home. Maybe even split a pitch into two in certain situations to aid critical communication. Just because your rope is 200' doesn't mean you have to use all of it on every pitch!
justgoodenough · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 41

You want it to be light, otherwise you might not want to use them.

I use these ones , they're the smallest radios I found that have sub-channels. I drilled a small hole into the back housing and threaded some 2 mm cord through it so we can use a small carabiner to back it up to our shoulder straps.

I've dropped one from 70ft and it survived. Whatever radio you choose, back it up.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

im not a fan of radios out here as you can drop them, or have dead batteries

the best way to stay "safe" is for both climbers to develop and practice basic procedures ... have a conversation about it first ...

- when the climber gets to the top of a pitch, they pull up the rope and puts the second on belay right away .. and then they keep on constantly tugging on the rope, none of that rope tug counting ... if theres any doubt the climber can put the second on belay before pulling up the rope (easier with a smart or gigi)

- in the absence of communication ... the belayer does not take the climber off belay unless its the end of the rope, and perhaps not even then ...

- basically the belayer will notice that the climbers rope will get pulled to the end of the rope, the rope will stop getting pulled up, and then the rope will be constantly tugging ... if needed the second can wait, if theres a minute or two of constant tugging, its assumed that the person is on belay

- if the rope gets to near the end, and then slack starts to accumulate again (no constant pulling up) it means the leader is downclimbing, either off route or to find a place for an anchor

- this of course requires that the belayer and climber be on the same page ... but its pretty standard procedure to put your second one belay quickly after the rope pull, and to not take someone off belay unless theres communication

the biggest risk is that the climber has run out of rope and the second is thus simuling ... that is perhaps when walkie talkies might be most valuable IF the leader can use em in the middle of a pitch ,... but thats something both parties need to take into account ... the second may be simuling if theres no obvious "quick rope pull up", and the leader should take this into account when deciding how long to pitch it out

note that as a second, you should assume yr simluling anyways for the first part of the climb on rope stretcher pitches ... a 10% static rope stretch (beal) means that on a 70m pitch you cant fall in the first 20+ feet regardless

in the case of rope stretcher simuling pitches the leader needs to be proficient at building a "good enough" temporary anchor to put the second on belay right away ... this can be to simly rap the rope around a tree and clove back to oneself ... or putting 2 pieces in series ... get the second on belay ASAP ... this is also when knowing the munter or belaying off the harness from the top is valuable as they are quicker to setup IME than an autoblock

also proper extension of the pieces will reduce the drag against the rock and from angles ... and reduce the length used by the rope (angles) and facilitate proper "communication" (pulling) through the rope

one note is that in squamish theres often reception ... so in an emergency if both climbers have cellphones on the chief you can call/text one another =P

good experience climber should be able to do multipitch with very little communication ... providing they practice it and have the proper procedures in place ... and are in sync

;)

Max Forbes · · Colorado · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 108

I'm kind of interested in so many people being opposed to the use of radios for communication. There so commonly used in BC sking, and even the recent Red Bull video of Will Gadd on niagra included radio conversation.

K R · · CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 50

patrick-shyvers, thanks for the advice. I can afford the vx3. To me I would rather learn ham and pay more if the radio works better. I was reading on other forums of people tossing their FRS radios because they didn't work well. Is there any way to help make a ham radio deal with line of sight issues better (different antenna, higher power model, etc)?

Yes stone nude, 7 tugs. My gf thought three might occur in normal climbing, which of course is true. I actually think 3 from leader, 3 from belayer, 3 from leader would be better. Stone Nude I've been climbing in MN and as you may know MN is not known for our mountains/multi-pitch. Rarely get a chance to dial this stuff in, but when it goes wrong it sucks. Like when we had the full rope length pitch, it could have been avoided, but I had topped out and didn't want to down climb 50-100ft to set up s belay lower. Instead she took probably 20 minutes to finally assume she was on belay and climb. Then on our next trip some guides had radios and the system looked pretty appealing. Plus when we were in joshua tree in canyons we were yelling Marco polo to different parts of our group... Radio once again would have been nice.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Pontoon wrote:Like when we had the full rope length pitch, it could have been avoided, but I had topped out and didn't want to down climb 50-100ft to set up s belay lower. Instead she took probably 20 minutes to finally assume she was on belay and climb. Then on our next trip some guides had radios and the system looked pretty appealing. Plus when we were in joshua tree in canyons we were yelling Marco polo to different parts of our group... Radio once again would have been nice.
Reread bearbreeder's post. Simplicity and not cluttering things up with additional toys goes a long way in climbing.

Regarding the communication in J-Tree - that's a different application and yes, radios could have helped. So could the two groups staying closer together.
Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

Pontoon, there are definitely some crummy FRS radios out there. Part of dealing with that, is shopping smart. Another part of dealing with that is using GMRS or MURS- from what I remember, FRS is the worst of the three for the backcountry.

When it comes to ham radios, you can usually handle non-line-of-sight issues with a good aftermarket antenna. As for TX power, range is a log function of power- 10x the power gives 2x the range, and 100x the power gives 4x the range. Handheld ham radios will generally be 3-5W, but given the log function their performance isn't usually that far apart. 5W is the most common/popular though.

Oh, and supposedly VHF (144MHz) propagates better in pine forests than UHF (440MHz) because the pine needles tend to soak up UHF. I'm not sure if this is hard science though.

Now you might understand a bit better why I said FRS was the worst of the three- it is UHF-only, and 0.5W (which translates to half the range of 5W GMRS)

Last thought- I would consider keeping the stock rubber-ducky antenna if you got a vx3. Yaesu antennas are not bad, and the factory antenna helps keep the whole package small. Even with the small antenna it may still have plenty of range- aftermarket antennas are generally more important as you hit 1-5 miles of range.

Ok, last LAST thought- your GF also needs to be ham licensed to transmit back to you on ham bands, although she can LISTEN to you all she likes.

bearbreeder wrote:good experience climber should be able to do multipitch with very little communication ... providing they practice it and have the proper procedures in place ... and are in sync ;)
See, this is my problem with the "NO RADIOS" stance. The solution is to be experienced? That's convenient, if you're already experienced. But for people who are not experienced, or who are with a new partner, it seems like it can come in handy.

FWIW I don't use my radio often. I keep it deep in my leader pack. I wind up using it most in hellish winds and other bad weather. I've also used it a few times to coordinate parties that were out of sight on different objectives.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Patrick Shyvers wrote: See, this is my problem with the "NO RADIOS" stance. The solution is to be experienced? That's convenient, if you're already experienced. But for people who are not experienced, or who are with a new partner, it seems like it can come in handy. FWIW I don't use my radio often. I keep it deep in my leader pack. I wind up using it most in hellish winds and other bad weather. I've also used it a few times to coordinate parties that were out of sight on different objectives.
my stance on the matter is that the experienced climber should teach new climbers basic techniques and procedures to keep them "safe" and for them to gain experience BEFORE using gear such a radios

new climbers tend to fumble and drop things IME ... and you need to be able to function effectively and safely without radios (and any other single piece of gear except the rope) ....

with new partners, if both are experienced in multi, a few minutes of conversation and perhaps a practice pitch or two is often enough ...

now there are probably good cases for radios in gnarly places or if folks are laying siege to a wall ...

but for the multis out here .. almost no one uses a radio and gets by just fine .... except for the moderate bangfest multiroutes full of new leaders dragging up even newer (and cute) seconds ... but thats not a case of needing the gear, but lack of skill and experience

i am a firm believe of skill and technique over gear, especially for new climber ... yes radios may help in some cases, but you better be experienced and practiced in what to do if you drop em or forgot to charge the bats

;)
Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10

I certainly don't advocate depending on them as your first line of communication. For me they are for handling shitty developments. Like, "hey second, I cleared the lip and can see an approaching thunderstorm, we need to bail ten minutes ago" or "wow I can't build a safe anchor here, please don't start climbing". You can handle these things without radios if you need to, of course, but my radio is tiny, and there is safety in good communication.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Patrick Shyvers wrote:I certainly don't advocate depending on them as your first line of communication. For me they are for handling shitty developments. Like, "hey second, I cleared the lip and can see an approaching thunderstorm, we need to bail ten minutes ago" or "wow I can't build a safe anchor here, please don't start climbing". You can handle these things without radios if you need to, of course, but my radio is tiny, and there is safety in good communication.
patrick ...

the problem IME is that you need to have the radio out of the pack with both climbers and constantly turned on in anticipation of these issues

and these issues can still be addressed between competent climbers without radios, as folks have done for decades, without the need for radios

one thing to remember is that at a certain point on long pitches you will get back visual and audio communication with the climber ... so a radio is often really only useful for the first half of the pitch, by midway you can often communicate with each other

radios may make sense in certain situations ... but for trade route multipitches that see alot of traffic, and plenty of folks climb just fine without them ... one should probably develop and practice the essential skills before using additional gear

;)
brandon Lund · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 0

decent inexpensive ham radio.

amazon.com/Baofeng-UV5RA-13…

if you want something more name brand i would recommend the i com sport (4x the price for half the features).

i would run them in simplex mode if all you are doing is communicating over a pitch length (should work for miles) if you want better range than you will need to use a local repeater.

and all of your choices would work fine over 200-500ft assuming its mostly free air

RDW · · Toronto, Canada · Joined Nov 2014 · Points: 185

I'm actually a big fan of using radios (I use a pair of motorola MT352s, fwiw). My main climbing partner was skeptical at first, but after one pitch of not having to yell/repeat everything 3 times, he was sold.

They're not essential, but they definitely make things a lot easier (especially on winter climbs or roadside climbs where sound gets swallowed up easily).

As for the concerns around dropping them, the one's I have came with a small carabiner hole. I just clip them to a sling that's around my shoulder and it's both accessible and secure all at once.

Wally · · Denver · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0

Ugh is my thought on radios. More clutter, more dicking around. Perhaps for the inexperienced - yeah - there were a few times back when I started climbing that yelling didn't quite work and that rope tugs weren't the answer.

Once your experience level improves, and comfort level with multi-pitch climbing improves, radios aren't necessary and become a pain in the butt. Our approach is pretty simple - if the leader is out of voice contact with the second then he does not try to communicate verbally with the second. The second keeps the leader on belay until all the rope is out. After that, the second begins to break down the anchor. If there are tugs from above, then the second understands that either he is on belay, or that the team is simul-climbing. The leader will figure out that he is transitioning from traditional belayed climbing to a simul-climbing belayed situation due to the couple of minutes it takes to break down the belay and lack of movement. If a pending storm comes in, the leader makes the call. If he wants to set up a rap and bail - the second needs to respect that decision. Me and a large group of experienced friends climb this way and - at this point in our climbing careers - would never consider radios.

My two cents. Certainly cool that others feel like they are a necessity, desirable, etc.

Climb Ohn. Wally

Wally · · Denver · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 0

Pontoon - and others - another thought is that it is important to consider the ability and experience of your second when contemplating rope stretcher leads. If I am climbing with a lesser experienced second, or a second that may have a difficult time following my lead, I typically make sure to avoid rope stretcher pitches. Avoiding big rope stretcher pitches is almost always an option.

Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Wally wrote:Pontoon - and others - another thought is that it is important to consider the ability and experience of your second when contemplating rope stretcher leads. If I am climbing with a lesser experienced second, or a second that may have a difficult time following my lead, I typically make sure to avoid rope stretcher pitches. Avoiding big rope stretcher pitches is almost always an option.
This is a good thought. Staying near your second if they are inexperienced and may have real trouble (with gear, with a move, with anything) makes it easier to help them if need be.
justgoodenough · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 41

Personally, I don't take the radios mentioned above unless I'm going out with less experienced climbers. I've worked out communication with my main partners pretty much how Wally has it.

What people are forgetting is how nice it is to have easy contact with the leader when you're an inexperienced follower. We place our radios on shoulder straps backed up with a carabiner so they're easy access. I can give extra instructions on removing pieces or give them specific beta about tricky sections that I encountered. There isn't any confusion when it comes to who's on belay when the winds pick up at 3p.

For this use, pick up the tiniest, simplest and cheapest FRS/GMRS radios for ~$30/pair. They will all be able to handle the 200ft distance. Make it light and easy for the follower to use.

I always take radios when I'm taking beginners.

Lee Green · · Edmonton, Alberta · Joined Nov 2011 · Points: 51

My wife and I are hams. We use VX-3Rs, for quite a few different purposes. Rugged and reliable. FRS radios are much cheaper - for a reason. We do take our HTs climbing, but seldom find cause to use them while actually on the crag. They can be very useful for logistics though, and for safety out in the backcountry.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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