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Best climbs damaged by climbing while rock is wet compendium

R. Moran · · Moab , UT · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 140
Dylan B. wrote: Nobody said it wasn't true. They simply asked, "how do you know?"
Well actually if you read his original post he calls into question the science behind it after talking to Geology Professors. So he did question it. Also his use of the word folklore trivializes the idea as though we do it because we are told and there might not be an actual reason. Either way the thread is Valid. Any more examples from Red Rock? Cuz this is way off the rails.
R. Moran · · Moab , UT · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 140

Well maybe it is on the rails. I just feel like it's digressed to arguing and dictionary definitions as opposed to calling out specific instances of damaged rock. But I guess what ever keeps the thread fresh so more people see is a good thing.

R. Moran · · Moab , UT · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 140

Quit sticking up for your boyfriend. He was flat wrong and tried to come off like he asked experts and had knowledge to the contrary. I schooled him as to why he was wrong. I did it to prevent any possible confusion by anyone who reads this. Make no mistake climbing on wet sandstone is going to destroy it and I want everyone to know.

Cunning Linguist · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 1,200
Dylan B. wrote: if your smart, don't pick a semantic fight with me. I'm out.
Clearly your a man not to be messed with on the Internet. Your the man, your got the juice now.

An apostrophe and an R and E, in that order, would help you sound more like an educated ass clown than the faux ass clown "your" coming off as.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Spelling Nazi.
Bill Kryst · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 30

Vino Rojo V6 - Giant undercling start got ripped off after this most recent rain

Where the down boys go 12d - crucial jug a couple bolts up got ripped off I believe in this last December's rain, not 100% sure on the date. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Mike Marmar · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 67

And now to derail it again...

One easy change to help get the word out about this issue: Add a big bold warning (or maybe use the Access Issue notification?) at the very top of the Red Rock page on MP telling people not to climb when the rock is wet, check the ground, etc etc. There are two bold messages about late exit passes and wag bags already on that page. I think this issue is as important or more important.

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,930
Mike Marmar wrote:One easy change to help get the word out about this issue: Add a big bold warning (or maybe use the Access Issue notification?) at the very top of the Red Rock page on MP
Done.
tom donnelly · · san diego · Joined Aug 2002 · Points: 364

How about an AF or BLM official warning road sign saying don't climb routes on wet or damp rock? Location of the sign should be before you start going up the one-way loop road.

Tboy · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 0
R. Moran wrote:Quit sticking up for your boyfriend. He was flat wrong and tried to come off like he asked experts and had knowledge to the contrary. I schooled him as to why he was wrong. I did it to prevent any possible confusion by anyone who reads this. Make no mistake climbing on wet sandstone is going to destroy it and I want everyone to know.
I think anyone who (a) uses the word "schooled" and (b) espouses homophobic language ought to be drastically ignored
Simon W · · Nowhere Land · Joined May 2013 · Points: 55

Anyone know when caustic cock was broken? The upper section, getting to the anchor felt different the day after Thanksgiving, it was a high gravity trip though.

Cunning Linguist · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 1,200
Tboy wrote: I think anyone who (a) uses the word "schooled" and (b) espouses homophobic language ought to be drastically ignored
Did this type of retort work for you in middle school? Cause I'd like to see that.
Patrick Shyvers · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Mike Marmar wrote:And now to derail it again... One easy change to help get the word out about this issue: Add a big bold warning (or maybe use the Access Issue notification?) at the very top of the Red Rock page on MP telling people not to climb when the rock is wet, check the ground, etc etc. There are two bold messages about late exit passes and wag bags already on that page. I think this issue is as important or more important.
Maybe even a link to recent weather history at the rock or something like that? "It last rained here X days ago"? For the areas I climb, I have seen similar notes at the top of the page covering access issues, linking to government websites that explain our seasonal closures (for birds and bats), they are very helpful
StatJuan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 10
Dylan B. wrote: You want to play semantics? I'm game. First, you shouldn't have omitted the first definition from Merriam Webster's online, except that you had to do so to make your point. It was dishonest.
Please refer to this post, in particular the language:
"unless you want to argue that these stories comprise "traditional customs" (the alternative definition)."
Ah, so I did no such thing. Good.
Dylan B. wrote:Also, you should have read farther to the "full definition" section. The notion that sandstone is weaker when wet is a traditional belief told to me by word of mouth from other climbers. It is, indeed, folklore by that definition. But let's look at a more authoritative dictionary, shall we? I have here on my desk the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary (11th Ed.) In it we find the following: folk•lore \ˈfōk-,lor\ n (1846) 1: traditional customs, tales, sayings, dances or art forms preserved among people 2: a branch of knowledge that deals with folklore 3: an often unsupported notion, story, or saying that is widely circulated. Note, in particular, the applicability of the third definition. The notion that sandstone is weaker when wet has heretofore been unsupported by any evidence that I was aware of; this notion was widely circulated, as I have heard it from multiple sources. Or, we can look at the dictionary app on my mac: folklore |ˈfōkˌlôr| noun • the traditional beliefs, customs, and stories of a community, passed through the generations by word of mouth. • a body of popular myth and beliefs relating to a particular place, activity, or group of people : Hollywood folklore. Don't we have here a "traditional belief...of a community, passed through the generations by word of mouth"? Why yes, we do.
No, we don't. We have scientific fact. If you want to claim that everything people seem to believe but generally don't have the scientific knowledge to understand, then the term basic applies to everything. I don't think this works. Just because one doesn't understand the support or is unaware of it does not make it unsupported. And we aren't even talking evidence, we understand the chemical mechanism here. I just can't get to where you are on this one.
The original post was anti-science and I viewed the tone as dangerous. It does nothing to advance the cause promoted by the OP (quite the opposite), I demonstrated it was wrong, and thought it should be removed. If you want to take issue with my tone, feel free. It was in response to the tone of the post I responded to.
Sorry for the late reply. Nice get on the 11th edition. Hard copy I hope.
Jan Roestel · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2008 · Points: 52
StatJuan wrote: Please refer to this post, in particular the language: "unless you want to argue that these stories comprise "traditional customs" (the alternative definition)." Ah, so I did no such thing. Good. No, we don't. We have scientific fact. If you want to claim that everything people seem to believe but generally don't have the scientific knowledge to understand, then the term basic applies to everything. I don't think this works. Just because one doesn't understand the support or is unaware of it does not make it unsupported. And we aren't even talking evidence, we understand the chemical mechanism here. I just can't get to where you are on this one. The original post was anti-science and I viewed the tone as dangerous. It does nothing to advance the cause promoted by the OP (quite the opposite), I demonstrated it was wrong, and thought it should be removed. If you want to take issue with my tone, feel free. It was in response to the tone of the post I responded to. Sorry for the late reply. Nice get on the 11th edition. Hard copy I hope.
Here's another book to get while you are out...

But why? Why is wet sandstone weaker than dry sandstone?

Per Sarah Garlick (author of A Rock Climber's Guide to Geology, Falcon Press, 2009):

"This is a question of importance not just to rock climbers but also to builders and engineers who use sandstone in construction. There are actually several different mechanisms by which rocks are weakened by moisture. Experiments have shown that the most important mechanism is called stress corrosion. This is a process that takes place when the chemical bonds between atoms of silica and oxygen—which are typically fairly strong—react with water, forming weak hydrogen bonds. This reaction happens within the individual quartz crystals of the sandstone and is more easily accomplished on the already-stressed bonds that exist on the tips of microcracks. The development of weakened chemical bonds changes the overall competency of the rock, allowing preexisting microcracks to propagate into larger cracks resulting in rock failure.

"Another mechanism by which water weakens sedimentary rocks is by altering or softening the rock's matrix. Sandstones that are cemented by clay minerals or calcite are particularly susceptible to matrix softening."

Now you know.

References:
C. G. Dyke and L. Dobereiner
Evaluating the strength and deformability of sandstones Quarterly Journal of Engineering Geology and Hydrogeology, February 1991, v. 24, p. 123-134

A. B. Hawkins and B. J. McConnell
Sensitivity of sandstone strength and deformability to changes in moisture content
Quarterly Journal of Engineering Geology and Hydrogeology, May 1992, v. 25, p. 115-130
Eric LaRoche · · West Swanzey, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 25

What about all the holds that break when dry? Are those just chalked up to shit happens?

Mike Marmar · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 67
Eric LaRoche wrote:What about all the holds that break when dry? Are those just chalked up to shit happens?
Yes.
KyleT · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 5

I am a would be out of town climber (trip 2/25 - 3/1) cancelled due to weather and personally, I found the best information about how to protect the rock from damage and the guidelines surrounding when not to climb right here on MountainProject. I know not everyone uses this site of course, but if local folks are looking to be proactive, perhaps make the rock strength thread a sticky and post proactively about the current conditions. Post like this are extremely helpful

By John Wilder...

"Red Rock was closed due to heavy snow today- it hadn't melted out by the end of today- probably will by tomorrow which is when the clock actually starts ticking for drying. Temps are going to be good- mid 60s and very tempting, but the rock needs time to dry. T

That kind of precip with the slow, extended soak the snow is going to give the rocks- man, I'd be surprised if anything in the Calico Hills was climbable before Saturday, but maybe the Gallery or some other super sunny sport crags by Friday. Maybe.

The canyons- probably next week, certainly so for the shady aspects.

As always, if the ground is wet at the base of the crag, the rock is too wet to climb on. This is the best barometer locals have managed to figure out over the years."

When you have a trip planned and money on the line you want something definitive to help you make a clear decision about going or staying home. As it was said before not all out of town climbers are familiar with with the nature of Aztec Sandstone and despite the applicability of this statement "as always, if the ground is wet at the base of the crag, the rock is too wet to climb on. This is the best barometer locals have managed to figure out over the years." It is very difficult to asses from my house in Colorado, so any posts local folks can offer is extremely helpful.

Thanks again John for a good post.

tenpins · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 30
Eric LaRoche wrote:What about all the holds that break when dry? Are those just chalked up to shit happens?
exactly. Shit wears out, things break with use. Time wears all things. treating something like shit will break it much sooner than average/normal use. Do you have kids? Do you let them destroy their toys at will and just buy them new ones or do you admonish them when they mistreat them? Same concept here bubba.

my engine driven welders at work break down all the time. They are old. Sometimes, its just their time. Other times, it cause the gang using it hasnt checked the oil level in a week. one is wear and tear. the other is negligent laziness.
Ross Hokett · · Great Falls, MT · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 266

"I am a would be out of town climber (trip 2/25 - 3/1) cancelled due to weather and personally, I found the best information about how to protect the rock from damage and the guidelines surrounding when not to climb right here on MountainProject. I know not everyone uses this site of course, but if local folks are looking to be proactive, perhaps make the rock strength thread a sticky and post proactively about the current conditions. Post like this are extremely helpful"

Next time just go to Jtree instead always a great back up

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Nevada
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