Another Accident due to mis-use of the Gri-gri

J. Albers wrote: I hate to agree with Top Rope Hero, but John man, you are spouting off a little bit strongly about something that you aren't right about. Of course there is some truth to what you are saying, but the way in which you are presenting your point makes you come across as a know it all...and if you are going to do that, you better be close to 100% right about your point (which you are not even close to). As with most things in climbing (and life), there is a ton of gray area and denying that fact and making absolute statements just makes you sound naive and arrogant at the same time.

I am right about it. Time will tell, but I doubt you or Top Rope Hubris will post an apology. As I said, if you don't believe it, test it. Use a dummy-weight or a partner you don't like.

I'm a member of a very small club: those who have taken a 60' fall and walked away.

I was a few feet below the chains on Hang Em High in Rifle. My belayer made the mistake of grabbing my rope too hard. When the rope burned through her gloves, the pain made her let go, and I stopped about 12' above the ground. BOTH gloves were burned, she never let go of the brake-strand.

Neither me or my belayer had any idea of what just happened. I had never heard of the Gri-gri failing to lock except when the cam was held down, or it was threaded backwards.

It being a weekend at the Project Wall, there were dozens of witnesses. Two of the witnesses, both world-class climbers, came over and explained it to us. It had happened to Lee (45') and Joe's GF had dropped a friend of mine 50' off of Eighty Feet of Meat. Luckily, all of us stopped before hitting the deck.

So yes, I do know what I'm fucking talking about.

It's been 20 years since the GriGri was introduced and four years since the GriGri2 was introduced. While I think you're probably right about the cause of the fall, I think you will only continue to hear about infrequent accidents similar to yours. Statistically this type of accident just isn't very common and given more time I think you will continue to see a trend further from the mean (if a trend is even shown). However, I recognize this is important to you, and that training is never a bad thing, so I support any effort to improve technique and training.

John Byrnes wrote:...and more importantly, KEEP YOUR OTHER HAND OFF THE CLIMBER'S STRAND.

John, I think what some people have a problem with, and obnoxiously jumped down your throat about, is the statement above. Of course you NEVER keep your hand off the climber's strand as that is how you feed rope. That is how we all use it and that is how Petzl teaches using it in all their videos. Your statement should perhaps be clarified to say that you keep your hand off the climber's strand while catching a fall.

John Byrnes wrote: I am right about it. Time will tell, but I doubt you or Top Rope Hubris will post an apology. As I said, if you don't believe it, test it. Use a dummy-weight or a partner you don't like. I'm a member of a very small club: those who have taken a 60' fall and walked away. I was a few feet below the chains on Hang Em High in Rifle. My belayer made the mistake of grabbing my rope too hard. When the rope burned through her gloves, the pain made her let go, and I stopped about 12' above the ground. BOTH gloves were burned, she never let go of the brake-strand. Neither me or my belayer had any idea of what just happened. I had never heard of the Gri-gri failing to lock except when the cam was held down, or it was threaded backwards. It being a weekend at the Project Wall, there were dozens of witnesses. Two of the witnesses, both world-class climbers, came over and explained it to us. It had happened to Lee (45') and Joe's GF had dropped a friend of mine 50' off of Eighty Feet of Meat. Luckily, all of us stopped before hitting the deck. So yes, I do know what I'm fucking talking about.

The same thing happened to me in the BRC maybe 6 years back. I let go at the top of the wall and experienced a very rapid descent(not quite a free fall) all the way to the floor. The belayers non-break hand was pretty badly burned and the grigri never locked.

the way that a belayer can drop someone regardless of device is simple ...

they grip the the climber strand tightly instinctively thinking this is what stops the climber and hold the brake hand lightly

this happens regardless of device ... ive seen folks have significant rope slip and near drops no matter the device

- on an ATC this habit is one of the things that needs to be absolutely beat out of beginners ... fortunately with and ATC it requires a fairly solid brake hand to control the descent and folks soon realize that ... however new climbers or inattentive ones grab the climber strand instinctively in a fall and that habit needs to be absolutely beat out of their system

- with a grigri, many folks use the fast feet method for all their belaying (look around at the crag or gym and youll see even experienced climbers do this) ... this means that you dont have a solid brake hand if you keep your hands in this position ... when a fall happens the belayer may grab the climber strand tightly especially if lifted up while still keeping the right hand on the device in the fast feed position (instead of bringing their right hand down to their hip) ... at this point they dont have a brake hand effectively and their thumb may still be on the cam even ... look around next time youll see folks "catching" on a grigri without bringing their brake hand down

- the smart in some ways is more "dangerous" than a properly used grigri IMO ... as you are always using a "fast feed" (defeating the "cam") when feeding out the rope ... folks have had their hands burned around here when feeding out with the smart, the climber falls .. the belayer instinctively grabs the climber strand tightly while still keeping the cam slightly open (they dont notice as they are always in the "fast feed" position) ... like a grigri you absolutely must take the brake hand off the device and bring it down onto the rope

both the smart and the grigri leads to bad habits IMO when taught to newer climbers or used as the sole belay device ... the problem is that on many falls you dont feel the weight of the climber on the brake hand very much, leading folks to believe (consciously or unconsciously) that the device will do the work regardless of the brake hand

while this is normally true ... there will be that one time due that it wont ... remember a 99.9% success rate is unacceptable as that means that a sport climber will get dropped in a year or two ... when the device doesnt catch (most likely because you messed up), the ONLY thing that saves your climber is your SOLID BRAKE HAND

newer climbers and some folks who think they know better need to be have it smacked in their heads that the left hand (climber strand) doesnt do diddly squat for braking ... over and over again ive seen folks using it to hold a fall or lower

ive had to tell at least 3 experienced belayers this last year to keep both hands below the ATC when lowering

just this friday ive had to beat the habit out of a new belayer at crag who i was supervising ... he kept on trying to hold TR falls and lowers with his left hand on the climber strand with a light brake hand

some gyms ive noticed have taken to teach climbers that "when the climber falls BOTH hands go on the brake strand"

remember safety is largely a matter of habits ... because thats what you revert to when cold, tired, hungry, and in the dark

John Byrnes wrote: I am right about it.

Anybody who makes a statement like this is very hard to take seriously.

John Byrnes wrote: Time will tell, but I doubt you or Top Rope Hubris will post an apology.

Hubris? Every single one of your statements in this forum is oozing with hubris. And that is exactly what people are responding to. There was nothing in my earlier statement that bordered on certainty. In fact my statements were trying to point out to you - albeit not super gently - that the world is gray and anyone who speaks otherwise is, well, like you put it, full of hubris.

John Byrnes wrote: I'm a member of a very small club: those who have taken a 60' fall and walked away. I was a few feet below the chains on Hang Em High in Rifle. My belayer made the mistake of grabbing my rope too hard.

You're not the only person in the world who has witnessed or participated in a near fatal or catastrophic accident. In fact, I have been involved in a nearly identical scenario. The difference is that I didn't put the blame in the wrong place when it was over. And just because your belayer screwed up royally doesn't make you the keeper of the holy grail of belay knowledge. Your situation is more subtle than you are making it out to be and the fact that you seem incapable of realizing that makes me nearly certain that I wouldn't share a rope with you; to the contrary, I would rather be belayed by a newb with an open mind who is willing to listen and adjust their behavior as new information enters their sphere.

John Byrnes wrote: So yes, I do know what I'm fucking talking about.

Sigh. Just because you have witnessed a slew of bad belayer errors doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. How you could think that witnessing something equates to understanding is a weird way to view the world.

Is there still some argument that holding the climber end of the rope interferes with the GriGri locking? I'm with John on this one.

Stich wrote:Is there still some argument that holding the climber end of the rope interferes with the GriGri locking? I'm with John on this one.

Sitch,

No, there isn't an argument about holding the rope during a fall. Anyone who understands how a gri-gri works and has been taught with any modicum of physical intuition would know this. This is the statement that people are taking issue with...

John Byrnes wrote: You must keep one hand on the brake-strand, and more importantly, KEEP YOUR OTHER HAND OFF THE CLIMBER'S STRAND.

Preachy, black and white statements are never a good idea. There are countless times when you can rightfully have your hand on the climbers strand when not feeding rope. If John had simply made a pleasantly worded message stating that care needs to be exercised when using a gri-gri, then he would have likely elicited a shrug and nod from most folks. Instead, John made a black and white decree as a PSA that I wouldn't want a newb listening too. And the fact that he is an admin just makes it more annoying because there are probably folks thinking that he is an authority, which he clearly is not.

The grigri puts a sharp enough bend in the rope: if you are using it correctly, it will catch falls, regardless of whether or not the cam engages. (But if you're using it correctly, the cam will engage >99% of the time, and when it doesn't, you'll be fine because you have your brake hand on the rope, locked off).

If you don't put your non-brake hand on the climber's strand, you can't belay with a grigri. REREAD THAT LAST SENTENCE. So keeping your hand off the climber's strand entails not using the grigri at all.

You're trying to make a valid point, John, but you're doing it VERY badly.

Keep your brake hand on the rope and locked off: that is the advice you need to be giving. A secondary, and MUCH less important point: try not to death-grip the climber's strand in a fall. But, to reiterate, if you are using your brake hand correctly, this is is a non-issue. Also, don't intentionally disengage the cam unless it's done correctly,

Bottom line: if you belay incorrectly, your belay device may not work. Gee, ya think?

The grigri is probably far more tolerant of bad belayers than an ATC, I'd say. A bad ATC belayer drops somebody right away, and they change or they quit belaying.

A bad grigri belayer can belay dozens of pitches before they get bitten and drop somebody.

Wow, you're right, the grigri really does suck! Oh, wait... Nope, belayers suck.

Damn, I can't believe I just responded to a grigri=evil thread... D'oh!

J. Albers wrote: Sitch, No, there isn't an argument about holding the rope during a fall. Anyone who understands how a gri-gri works and has been taught with any modicum of physical intuition would know this. This is the statement that people are taking issue with... Preachy, black and white statements are never a good idea. There are countless times when you can rightfully have your hand on the climbers strand when not feeding rope. If John had simply made a pleasantly worded message stating that care needs to be exercised when using a gri-gri, then he would have likely elicited a shrug and nod from most folks. Instead, John made a black and white decree as a PSA that I wouldn't want a newb listening too. And the fact that he is an admin just makes it more annoying because there are probably folks thinking that he is an authority, which he clearly is not.

I'm with J. Albers on this one - John's attitude gets my back up so I would antagonize him without much regard to the correctness of his statements.

Also, his insistence that this issue happens much too often may conceal the fact that Grigri users may experience a lower incidence of dropping people and so actually be an inherently more safe tool (I don't know, there's just lots of assumption based on anecdotal evidence).

teece303 wrote:The grigri is probably far more tolerant of bad belayers than an ATC, I'd say. A bad ATC belayer drops somebody right away, and they change or they quit belaying. A bad grigri belayer can belay dozens of pitches before they get bitten and drop somebody.

thats the problem put succinctly right there ...

a grigri belayer can get away with years of bad habits and think he/she is doing nothing wrong .. you see this all the time at your local crag/gym

an ATC belayer who catches whippers not infrequently tends to be quite diligent about the brake hand ... if they arent they drop folks pretty fast

grigris are great devices for rockfall, boinking/projecting, an unexpected situations (heart attack, smacked hard into the rock, etc) ... they are poor substitutes for poor technique

a person who is not competent to belay on an ATC is not competent to belay on a grigri ... after all if you follow petzls instruction the belay method is the same ... except for the fast feed (which you should only use on quick clips) and lowering

the petzl instructional video near the end has clips of folks doing shiet with a grigri that you would never do with an ATC ... including some guy playing the flute

vimeo.com/80489871

no one should get dropped on a grigri as theoretically it "offers an additional level or protection" ... however technology is defeated by the habits humans develop in response to it ...

and folks get dropped all the time on em ... a simple search on MP or other intraweb forums will gives tons of examples

John Byrnes wrote:You must keep one hand on the brake-strand, and more importantly, KEEP YOUR OTHER HAND OFF THE CLIMBER'S STRAND. Grabbing the climbers-strand will prevent the Gri-gri from locking.

So it's impossible to belay a lead climber with a gri gri? What's your trick to feeding the rope?

John Byrnes wrote:She ended up with rope-burns on both hands.

Curious…. did she have both hands above the device? Both below the device? One above one below?

I agree with you, bearbreeder.

But that is actually an argument for the safety of the grigri: it will cover up SOME of your bad belayer's mistakes, but not all. An ATC will cover up zero of your bad belayer's mistskes.

So bad belayers can get along thinking they are fine with a grigri.

Interestingly, the talk about the climber's strand of the rope in this thread perfectly illustrates that point. In the majority of lead falls encountered, a hand on the climber's strand makes no difference.

The times when it IS really bad are times when the belayer was ALREADY fucking up: if the brake hand is on the rope and locked off, you will arrest a fall, and the cam will almost certainly engage (but even if it doesn't for some bizarre reason, you will still arrest the fall, just more slowly).

When the brake hand is NOT on the rope, AND it is either a very low impact fall OR the belayer simulated a low impact fall by death-gripping the climber's strand, this is when the grigri will fail. The belayer is not providing simple, belay 101 friction AND they are defeating the camming action of the grigri.

But a bad belayer created that situation in the first place, by using technique that involved not minding the brake strand.

teece303 wrote:In the majority of lead falls encountered, a hand on the climber's strand makes no difference.

there is one situation that is not unknown where it makes a difference ... this is regardless of device

when belaying or on rappel ... when you get pulled into the rock, stumble, slip, etc ... the instinctive reaction is to put out a hand to steady or protect yourself

theres a very good chance that hand will be the break hand ... i have observed this with newer climbers on both rappel and belaying ... fortunately they were backed up in various ways

now with a grigri/smart there is the additional chance that the caming action may engage saving the climber ... and a prussic might catch on rappel

regardless the root cause is letting go of the brake strand ... like i said some folks are starting to teach to keep BOTH hands on the brake in case of a fall and on rappel ... there really is no real reason not to

as to the grigri being "safer" ... if used properly its theoretically "safer" ... however if folks are honest, they will often admit that their brake hand technique gets a bit lazy when they use an assisted locking device exclusively for a long period of time ...

i will admit it

the flip side is you have to watch out for those geezer that belayed on a tube for decades but almost never catch falls ... they dont have any practice catching actual whippers frequently ... lack of practice but a belief in your infallibility is not conductive to being a "safe" belayer

anyways the rant is many folks are using these devices to cover up a host of errors ... which is why folks get dropped with em

heres an experienced climber dropping someone

reddit.com/r/climbing/comme…

heres is someone who dropped their partner on an ATC and is wondering if he should get a grigri (i know folks who did this, i wont climb with em)

reddit.com/r/climbing/comme…

examples abound ...

teece303 wrote:The grigri puts a sharp enough bend in the rope: if you are using it correctly, it will catch falls, regardless of whether or not the cam engages.

I don't think this is true. The rope path is nowhere near as "sharp" as an ATC's.

Gri gri Rope Path

Considerable evidence for the low level of friction available with the cam disengaged comes from multiple reports of people pulling back to far on the lever while lowering someone and then not being able to control the descent. Surely, in this situation, their brake hand is in the proper position, and yet they don't have enough friction to hold body weight, much less a climbing fall.

rgold wrote: I don't think this is true. The rope path is nowhere near as "sharp" as an ATC's. Considerable evidence for the low level of friction available with the cam disengaged comes from multiple reports of people pulling back to far on the lever while lowering someone and then not being able to control the descent. Surely, in this situation, their brake hand is in the proper position, and yet they don't have enough friction to hold body weight, much less a climbing fall.

Doesn't take much of a bend to hold body weight or catch a fall. You don't need to hold the rope straight down to lock off a tube device, in fact you can be fairly close to perpendicular to the device for before it starts to feed. I think those people that drop the climber while lowering them with a gri gri are relying on the device itself and not their brake hand, controlling the rate of descent solely with the cam in the device. I've lowered people with the gri gri wide open using it as a tube device. As long as you have a solid hand on the brake they aren't going anywhere.

LCC-Climber wrote:Petzl just recalled all Grigri 2s

Tim Lutz wrote:http://www.petzl.com/security/sport/recall-grigri-2?language=en#.VJUIqsBA

If by JUST you mean back in 2011….

I really think it is true, rgold, and more to the point, Petzl seems to think its true (and I'm sure they've tested it).

I doubt it's an ideal belay device without the cam, but it will stop a fall of you lock off. But maybe I'm crazy.

But of course, it is designed to cam and it should cam and it will cam if you let it.

People drop climber's with the grigri because it allows sloppy technique (and usually works fine with terrible technique!) but once in awhile, in the thousands upon thousands of pitches belayed with the grigri, someone gets bitten by their sloppy technique.

Hmm...I have to say that I find this discussion rather odd. When I've caught lead falls before, my usual instinct is to pull down on the break hand and immediately transfer my left hand to the break, doubling it up. To be fair, I usually lead on ATCs and haven't put nearly as much time on the walls as some of you guys, but I find the instinct to pull or clamp down on the climber's rope odd, even with a Gri Gri. Still, it's good to know about this potential device failure.

Wow... I hope the injured climber heals up ok and the injured belayer heals up.

For the longest time I resisted using the GriGri, and stayed with the trusty ATC, Stich plate, and the hip belay as conditions dictated.

But a really great thing happened on MP... a big nasty mean "discussion" like this one got me thinking about the GriGri.... so I started using one, learned how it works, learned what not to do and what to do. I now own one and use it about 100% of the time, when I go climb the steep sport. Nothing works as well, period.

Its not a beginners tool for sure because you can work it improperly with disastrous consequences. eg: the drop in this OP.

The answer, dont ask me, im not a technical expert. But the same rule applies no matter what devise one is using.... do not let go with the brake hand when the climber falls and use your free hand to stop your face from hitting the rock.

be safe