A cautionary Tale of Two Metals - and a bolt that pull out after just 15 years

I'm afraid this is getting a bit esoteric. Seeing that our failed bolts can easily obliterate some innocent citizen like Legion, we do tend to get a bit obsessive.
For the average recreational climber it's partly a case of "ignorance is bliss". You can play the long odds and just Clip And Go.......not too bad if you're not planning on really falling. Trust your kama.
You can help matters a bit by rapping down and having a good look at the hardware, especially if you're working a possible-fall project. Jump around on the key pieces, take a small crescent wrench to tighten any loose hanger nuts and pull vigorously outwards on anything that looks dodgy. Do NOT hammer on any bolts to test them -- that might cause worse problems.....
Applewood's bad bolt seems to have been good steel (all those bends) so the problem was probably just that "deep weathering".
Sorry Legion, but that introduces a whole new area where things can go wrong. Rock, alas, is not always (usually) "rock hard". Even a hard crystalline rock like granite is surprisingly porous. Water and other mineral solutions can pass through the crystalline structure and be sucked into very small cracks and crevices -- including our bolt holes. Limestone can hollow out behind a bolt in no time at all and such a nice damp spot is ideal for chemical changes. Some rocks, like sandstones and some granites have a hard outer shell over a softer core -- like desert varnish. That produces useful chicken heads but once you drill through the misleadingly solid surface you're in some kind of mush. Geo-chemists specialize in this sort of thing.
You may have found something like all this at the bottom of your hole?
Again --- glueing in bolts gives the best bet for the whole final gizmo to work. Not only is there no mechanical expansion necessary but all the mush and solid shell is fuzed together in a new incarnation that is probably stronger and more inert than the native rock. With SS and plastic adhesives gomming up the whole area of the original drilled hole, there is no conduit for malignant chemical solutions to penetrate and cause their wickedness.
The compromise idea of using a regular hole WITH some added glue is not good. For starters, a glued-in anchor needs to have a full 1mm (about 1/32") of space around it, so that the glue has enough mass to achieve some structural integrity. I once asked Ed Leeper if sealing the bolt was a good idea and he replied "are you sealing the moisture in or out"? Given all the above, it's probably best to let regular bolts "breathe" -- like old climbing shoes. Maybe, eventually, they will dry out....
Then there's the possibility of the sealing compound interfering with the tightening and expansion of the anchor.
A better idea is to take the torque tightening of a mechanical bolt seriously. Find the exact manufacturers specs and invest in a good torque wrench. If you can't easily achieve the torque spec, something is fishy
-- perhaps a clogged thread or some rock mush.
If this gets tedious, I expect there's always trad climbing -- that used to be fun too...........

Thanks again Rusty for your contribution to this thread. I'll look into glue-ins more (never thought it necessary in the type of rock I bolt). This whole issue does make trad look safer/more attractive... and the one saving grace to many of my old routes with those questionable bolts is they are mixed, so at least a few pieces of gear would be certain (it seems the trend these days is to get away from that - for the convenience of only having to take a rack of draws).

Steve Levin wrote:Gregger Man, Matt R. and others are working out techniques for bolt removal here in Boulder that make the "smash-and-break" methodology obsolete while increasing likelihood of re-use of original holes and minimizing rock scaring from hammer blows. Not bolt chopping, but bolt removal. Should be able to find more info on MP. Worth investigating...

Steve,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe with Gregger Man's 'spin it out' technique you have to redrill the hole to a larger diameter (Gregger Man has been going from 3/8" to 1/2"). Nothing wrong with that, we do it all the time going from 1/4" to 3/8", I am just adding a bit of information.

Possible guess:

It looks like that bolt was 3/8 x 2 1/4 or so? Judging by the length and where it bent while you were hammering the wedge was possibly an inch or less in the hole and the first inch is usually significantly less consistent than the bottom of the hole while hand drilling (especially if you suck at it like me or are going from a bad stance).

Maybe it wasn't super secure in the first place and the hammering broke a few more crystals off and freed up the seemingly bomber bolt?

I've had wedge bolts almost all the way tight and get loose just as I was about to call it good. I've also hit soft pockets in granite so the rock around the wedge could have been less that perfect as well.

I don't know, just a thought. That's nice of you to go replace the bolts!

The spinning technique for stud bolts probably does modify the hole size. I don't know if it's a requirement to enlarge the hole, but we have been upgrading everything from 3/8" to 1/2" anyway. If I were going to re-use a 3/8" hole I would at least drill it deeper and switch to a longer bolt (and definitely make the replacement a 5-piece and not a wedge.)
I replaced four bolts on Tuesday that were all SS hangers on plated bolts. The first three were 1/2" Rawls placed 14 years ago. The sleeves were already rusty enough that one of them tore apart during extraction. Came out in 4 pieces.
The fourth bolt was a stud from ~1990's (guess). The threads were so rusty that they disintegrated as soon as I started working on it and I had to chop and patch. I worry that the nut and hanger could pop off of bolts like that.
The failure mode that I have seen with rusty studs is that the collar rusts to the shaft and cannot move or rust on the wedge has the same effect. That removes the 'slider-nut' capability of the bolt - if you can move it at all, it slips out. The bolts on Sunrider were like that. We didn't spin them at all. We just pulled with a few hundred pounds of force and they slid right out without even scraping the rust off the collars. The collars did not engage the wedge any further as they were pulled out of the hole. I see corrosion on the wedge in the OP's photo that might be responsible for a similar lack of collar movement.

Hi Limpingcrab, yes it is a shorter bolt (2.25"), and only 1.5" was buried in the rock. (This is one of the reasons I am wanting to replace them, and one of the reassuring aspects since I didn't use short bolts very often, so think that batch may be confined to that small crag.)

Maybe it is as simple as your idea of a shallow placement being weakened in the removal. But the hole and rock appeared good (no extra lack of depth from surface weakening), and none of the other bolts (same length) pulled. One other aspect is that the holes didn't have any extra depth (easy to check by hammering in the broken stud). Now, besides always using at least 3" SS bolts - which are thus buried 2.5" - I also drill the holes an extra .25 to .5" depth and blow out the dust. This may help with moisture build up and breathability. Anyway, for me at least this is all a reminder to use best practices when bolting - and when in doubt, replace.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Steve, Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe with Gregger Man's 'spin it out' technique you have to redrill the hole to a larger diameter (Gregger Man has been going from 3/8" to 1/2"). Nothing wrong with that, we do it all the time going from 1/4" to 3/8", I am just adding a bit of information.

Yes, a larger diameter hole is drilled.

In Eldorado, where I have most of my experience replacing bolts, all new bolts are now 1/2" SS. In fact, the Action Committee for Eldorado (ACE) and ECSP require this spec.

FYI, ACE will supplies the bolts, hardware, drills, bits, etc. A permit from ECSP is required.

HI Gregger Man, thanks for the input - its fascinating to imagine the kind of experience you must have with failed and weathered bolts! The removed bolt certainly has a rusted/frozen collar now, but since it did tighten down 15 years ago, I thought maybe the outer surface had corroded enough to make it slid out, but suppose a "healthy" bolt should have a collar that can move and tighten more years later if need be.

Do you ever see such failures (of thread and/or collars) with SS wedge style bolts?

Billcoe wrote:I don't disagree on mixing metals, but I've learned it's usually not a big deal like I once thought it was. If you have an aluminum hanger and any other kind of a bolt, thats a huge issue. But look at these: This bolt was stainless, and an unplated steel homeade hanger was put on it in teh wettest part of the Columbia River gorge (wet indeed) where it stayed for 20 years, moss covered towards the end. Still perfectly strong. Close up of Tim Olsen, local guidebook author and good dude to hang with - he remembered the location. It was invisible but he dug and found it. Look at the plants. Wet eh? See? The stainless wedge anchors look perfect still. The hanger, being homemade, probably always looked like crap, but it's still plenty strong. Here's one I found is a huge ticking time bomb we all need to avoid. The steel 5 piece Powers anchors will corrode right where the threads meet the body of the bolt. You can't do a visual inspection as it is below grade. Even within a year I've gone back to replace with stainless and the 5 pieces were looking real real bad. Corroded badly. That's all I have. Take care all and don't blindly trust old bolts is a good motto to have:-)

You tested this bolt or you just think it was OK?

I have not attempted to remove any old SS wedge bolts. Stainless is so malleable that pulling hard on a stud can make the threads quickly become useless when everything starts stretching.
I'm amazed at how many plated bolts in Eldo sport stainless hangers. Lots of silicone/plumber's putty seal jobs, too. Not good.

If you look closely at the photo you'll notice a clean spot right where the collar meets the wedge.

15 year old plated steel wedge anchor and hole it easily pulled out of.

Just throwing out an possible scenario, bear with me.

What if when hitting the stud up and down, it actually forced the stud into the hole slightly. This may have loosened the wedging action. Now the collar was no longer being wedged open.
There is rust below the collar and above the clean spot. This may indicate that where there was steel on steel contact, no rust developed. As the stud got pushed forward the collar contracted and now there may be rusted steel to rusted steel contact. If the rust to rust friction is sufficiently greater than the collar to rock friction the stud may pull out easily.

In conclusion the bolt may have been fine until it was messed with.

Just a thought.

Rocknice2, yes that may be part of it (as it obviously moved a little in the hammering) - yet the clean unrusted part is only about 1/16th of an inch wide (and less on the back side), and the sleeve is still firmly stuck part way up the flaring collar, so I'm not sure if this would have loosened the placement enough on its own.

Usually a bolt tightens down at least 1/4 of an inch when placed, as the sleeve is forced to wedge up on the collar, but sometimes the sleeve has some extra room to slide around - theres only an 1/8th of an inch space visible in front on this one, so it makes me think it didn't have much extra space to begin with. Also, at least with all the new bolts I've ever placed, once they are hammered in they can't be simply pulled out, even before tightening down, due to the extremely tight fit (and the nubs on the sleeve - discussed below).

This may reflect back on the quality of bolt issue - I have a new plated wedge bolt (Red Head) here now, and the sleeve moves freely for about 1/8th of an inch, while the SS wedge bolts I have (Powers - pictured on original post) has a sleeve that is fixed firmly with no foregap. On both of the new bolts there are large round nubs designed to hold the sleeve firmly in the hole and let the tightening action "expand" the bolt - the weathered bolt (pictured here) has only the slightest hint of a nub - it may never have had them, or they got rubbed off in the instillation, or they rusted/eroded over time. I think that is what mattered most - and now gives me a better idea of what to look for when comparing bolt quality (movement of sleeve and size of nub - thanks for making me look into this more!)

Probably many factors were involved here - including perhaps; rock quality, shortness of bolt, shallowness of hole, cheap quality bolt, inconsistent quality in bolt manufacturing, weathering of plated steel, initial torquing at placement, and "removal" method, but I think the cheap bolt is the most likely main factor...

other side of bolt

To me, that bolt looks fine and like it should still hold. Since it came out at 15 years, I wouldn't be surprised to learn it would have come out at 15 minutes. It probably would have held in shear, so you would never have known it was bad.

I've managed to pop a few bolts out with a pry bar. If you didn't get the hole clean, it doesn't stay in there too well. I wouldn't remember after 15 years.

In years past, I've put my face up to the hole, closed my eyes, and blew (quote that motherfuckers). Now days, I use a straw, then a brush, then a straw again. I don't have an issue with SS wedge in good rock but a super clean hole is even more important than with sleeve.

Hi Nicelegs, I agree with your points. All I remember is the bolt tightened down 15 years ago. Back then I also simply closed my eyes and blew the dust out. Now I use a small plastic tube inserted into the hole with a piece of flexible tubing attached to blow into - works like a charm.

Maybe it is as simple as poor hole prep... But its sobering to think how easily this can happen and how many bolts there are out there similarly placed.

Gregger Man wrote:I have not attempted to remove any old SS wedge bolts. Stainless is so malleable that pulling hard on a stud can make the threads quickly become useless when everything starts stretching. I'm amazed at how many plated bolts in Eldo sport stainless hangers. Lots of silicone/plumber's putty seal jobs, too. Not good.

Hey Gregger,

You bring up a really good point about the putty seal jobs. "Sealing" in bolts to keep water out was in vogue for a while in CA too. Unfortunately what it actually accomplished was holding water in. The result is a bolt that look good on the outside but is badly rotten inside (FYI, I am basing my statements off of some info that Greg Barnes posted somewhere...). Anyway, I have been thinking about replacing some bolts in the SPlatte because of this concern, but I don't want to waste my time if the bolts are probably okay. What has been your experience here in CO regarding the state of sealed bolts? Just FYI, the bolts in question are plated 3/8" wedges with SMC hangers (the good 2nd gen ones, not the wafer thin guys), so I am guessing they are circa late 90's plus or minus a few years.

Cheers.

applewood: When you hammer in a brand new bolt the collar will slide along the stud smoothly. Thus when you try to remove it before torquing down the nut, it still has a good wedging action. When the collar and stud are rusted it may prevent the wedge from engaging the collar.
Once torqued down how much of the collar actually contacts the wedge with force? Can you split the collar and look inside? If there is a matching clean spot on both collar/stud, that may lend some clue.
But you're right it could be any number or combination of causes.

J. Albers wrote: Hey Gregger, You bring up a really good point about the putty seal jobs. "Sealing" in bolts to keep water out was in vogue for a while in CA too. Unfortunately what it actually accomplished was holding water in. The result is a bolt that look good on the outside but is badly rotten inside (FYI, I am basing my statements off of some info that Greg Barnes posted somewhere...). Anyway, I have been thinking about replacing some bolts in the SPlatte because of this concern, but I don't want to waste my time if the bolts are probably okay. What has been your experience here in CO regarding the state of sealed bolts? Just FYI, the bolts in question are plated 3/8" wedges with SMC hangers (the good 2nd gen ones, not the wafer thin guys), so I am guessing they are circa late 90's plus or minus a few years. Cheers.

I wouldn't want to tell you not to do it but between Kevin Stricker and the Fixed Pin crew, most of the suspect stuff has been dealt with. Even a lot of non suspect stuff has gotten done for the sake of consistency. This isn't to say there aren't plenty of obscure routes with bad bolts. It just isn't the issue that it was 10 years ago. Entirely thanks to about 3 or 4 people. Pretty amazing IMO.

nicelegs wrote: I wouldn't want to tell you not to do it but between Kevin Stricker and the Fixed Pin crew, most of the suspect stuff has been dealt with. Even a lot of non suspect stuff has gotten done for the sake of consistency. This isn't to say there aren't plenty of obscure routes with bad bolts. It just isn't the issue that it was 10 years ago. Entirely thanks to about 3 or 4 people. Pretty amazing IMO.

Agreed that Kevin and Fixed Pin have admirably done a lot of work (also need to give a shout to the ASCA). However there are still a ton of routes out there in the SPlatte with either Leepers and quarters or simply badly, badly rusted early generation 3/8" plated bolts. I know because I have been climbing on them the last two seasons in the areas that I frequent. Obviously replacing the quarters are the priority, but from the pics that I have seen, when pulled those early gen 3/8" bolts can be really rotten on the inside. Considering that I frequent these routes (and rarely see anyone else), I figure that I should be doing my part (its just time and effort for me because I already have all the required gear for doing replacements).

Cheers.

Rocknice2, on this old bolt I was able to get the sleeve loose, and so it can slide around (a little less than 1/4 play) - but it was pretty snug near the end of its range (only 1/16th of an inch clean metal) when it came out which makes me think it either wasn't in very firmly at first (as Nicelegs suggests due to poor hole prep) or it was in fine but pulled due to some corrosion at contact points.

As you can see in the pic the rusting is most extreme down at the base of the collar where the sleeve sat (puddling in back of hole?). There is only a narrow band (1/16th") with no rusting where the sleeve was wedged tightest - but this may also have been simply scrapped off in the removal process. The outside of the sleeve shows extreme rusting but the insides - surface of bolt under sleeve and inside surface of sleeve - only have a tarnished look - and no obvious rusting. Even at the edge where its in tight contact with the collar the sleeve is merely tarnished, except for a slight band in the middle area where there'd be less contact with the bolt surface.

This indicates to me that 1) the sleeve only is held tight at the narrow band where it meets the collar, 2) that there wasn't much water contact on the inner parts, but that all the rusted surfaces were in contact with the sides of the hole, and thus 3) the whole bottom section (3/4" in this case) is part of the friction.

Innards of 15 year old plated bolt - from a semi-arid granite environment.

One think I feel that is worth mentioning is that there is a huge range of quality when it comes to wedge bolts. There are many, many manufacturers, some like Hilti are considered to be very good quality, others, especially the ones you get at the big box hardware stores for cheap are not.

So, making blanket statements about wedge bolts should be avoided as a lot depends on the quality of the bolt.