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Retro Bolting/Chopping Bolts

Original Post
Wilson On The Drums · · Woodbury, MN · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 940

Yea I know another thread and it may have been discussed here before but I have a simple question and am just looking for opinions. I know the ethics to retro-bolt a route involves getting the FA permission but how about chopping bolts on a route that has been retro bolted and you are unaware if the FA gave permission or not? There was a popular historic 5.7X with 2 bolts in SD that someone went and retro bolted. I am not sure if they asked the FA party or not. When 2 locals saw that it was retro-bolted they immediately chopped them, no questions asked. Personally I don't think they had the right to chop them but again if they were standing up for the ethics of the area does it make it ok?

Jared Moore · · Truckee, CA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 130

Oh God...you just opened up a can of worms, as I'm sure you are aware.

Tug · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 0

They had just as much right to chop them as the bolters had a right to put them in.

Next question.

rging · · Salt Lake City, Ut · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 210

Only the person who made the route can answer that question. Seek God's advice.

Wilson On The Drums · · Woodbury, MN · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 940

i know i opened a can of worms, some call it trolling... i'm just looking for honest opinions is all

Shane Zentner · · Colorado · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 205

It's not trolling, don't worry about it. If the FA party agreed to have their line retro bolted, then, the bolts should not have been chopped. If(and that's a big IF) the retro bolters added more bolts to an existing climb to make it 'safer' and more user friendly without seeking permission from the first ascentionists, then, yes, the new bolts should be erased.

If the first ascent is not yours, then, leave it alone. It's a simple matter of respect. If you can't climb the route as it was originally established, then, walk away from it and save it for another day.

-Shane

marty funkhouser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 20

My opinion: learn to be a better climber (a general statement and not directed at the OP). A 5.7X route on solid rock is within the abilities of most climbers. Climbing can be a head game and IMO this aspect of the sport is what separates it from most other sports.

I'm actually surprised that more folks don't appreciate this fact. Many times I have seen a 5.11 crack climber fall apart when faced with a runout 5.9 climb. Yet another, less strong and technically proficient climber can tackle the same 5.9 runout without a second thought. That type of scenario is somewhat unique to climbing and should be celebrated rather than eliminated by adding bolts to every runout climb.

If you don't enjoy this aspect of climbing then there is top-roping, sport climbing, gym climbing, etc. The options are endless. Imposing your will on others by adding bolts is as wrong as imposing your will on others by chopping an already established sport climb.

Shane Zentner · · Colorado · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 205
jeff lebowski wrote:My opinion: learn to be a better climber (a general statement and not directed at the OP). A 5.7X route on solid rock is within the abilities of most climbers. Climbing can be a head game and IMO this aspect of the sport is what separates it from most other sports. I'm actually surprised that more folks don't appreciate this fact. Many times I have seen a 5.11 crack climber fall apart when faced with a runout 5.9 climb. Yet another, less strong and technically proficient climber can tackle the same 5.9 runout without a second thought. That type of scenario is somewhat unique to climbing and should be celebrated rather than eliminated by adding bolts to every runout climb. If you don't enjoy this aspect of climbing then there is top-roping, sport climbing, gym climbing, etc. The options are endless. Imposing your will on others by adding bolts is as wrong as imposing your will on others by chopping an already established sport climb.
Jeff,
Well said, buddy. Well said. I, too, have witnessed '5.12' climbers walk away from runout 5.6 Eldorado pitches only to 'show me up' later on a difficult sport climb. It's really quite comical if you consider it (and I'm not an elistist either).
Joan Lee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 140

There we go again... I will start bringing my "aid kit" on trad leads from now on (a hammer and a set of pins). The aide climber in me that is eagerly waiting to come out shall have it's chance! It's a win win situation!

Shane Zentner · · Colorado · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 205
Joan Lee wrote:There we go again... I will start bringing my "aid kit" on trad leads from now on (a hammer and a set of pins). The aide climber in me that is eagerly waiting to come out shall have it's chance! It's a win win situation!
Hi Joan. I fail to understand the logic in your comment. Perhaps it's me, but, could you please explain?
Joan Lee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 140
Shane Zentner wrote: Hi Joan. I fail to understand the logic in your comment. Perhaps it's me, but, could you please explain?
OK, I pound pins in micro cracks on runout trad routes, and heck I will use the rivots too for what they are worth to pass the sketchy runouts. Now, mind you all, I am new at this "pounding pins" stuff. My partner gives it a shot to clean it, if he can't we leave pins and, tada! The route just got "retrobolted"!
To those who don't know: a pin is aka a piton I.e. A metal spike used to climb aid routes by pounding it with a hammer into rock cracks and holes. The piton is to be removed by a second using a hammer and a Funkness Device (very violent tool) , or just left there....kinda like a bolt...
Noah J · · Desert, NM · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 446
Joan Lee wrote: OK, I pound pins in micro cracks on runout trad routes, and heck I will use the rivots too for what they are worth to pass the sketchy runouts. Now, mind you all, I am new at this "pounding pins" stuff. My partner gives it a shot to clean it, if he can't we leave pins and, tada! The route just got "retrobolted"!
On the off chance this isn't a troll...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean…

It's not 1970. Defacing clean lines with pitons is bad stewardship.
Joan Lee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 140
Noah.J wrote: On the off chance this isn't a troll... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean… It's not 1970. Defacing clean lines with pitons is bad stewardship.
It's not 1970...that's what I keep telling those old timers who keep pushing me to climb in my steel toe boots or its not an onsight!
Shane Zentner · · Colorado · Joined Nov 2001 · Points: 205

Hi Joan,
You aren't retro bolting anything; You are simply leaving pins behind that you or your partner cannot physically remove from a seam. As I understand it, retro bolting refers to placing a new pattern of bolts over a previously existing bolted climb, specifically adding more bolts to areas where the retro bolter deems necessary to make the route feel safer (i.e. adding more bolts to runout sections).

I'm trying to grasp your logic regarding aid climbing through difficult sections and retro bolting. Could you please expand on your point for clarity? I'm quite certain there are others(and myself!) who are curious to understand your thinking.

Thank you!

Joan Lee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 140
Shane Zentner wrote:Hi Joan, You aren't retro bolting anything; You are simply leaving pins behind that you or your partner cannot physically remove from a seam. As I understand it, retro bolting refers to placing a new pattern of bolts over a previously existing bolted climb, specifically adding more bolts to areas where the retro bolter deems necessary to make the route feel safer (i.e. adding more bolts to runout sections). I'm trying to grasp your logic regarding aid climbing through difficult sections and retro bolting. Could you please expand on your point for clarity? I'm quite certain there are others(and myself!) who are curious to understand your thinking. Thank you!
I just wanna get up there! Simple.
Geir www.ToofastTopos.com · · Tucson/DMR · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 2,751
Joan Lee wrote: I just wanna get up there! Simple.
Get stronger instead of screwing up existing free lines. Simple.
caribouman1052 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5

I'm sick of this. The bolt war IN THE U.S. was decided long ago, and we decided that adding bolts was unethical.

Tug said it best. Don't add, don't subtract.

BOLTS ARE AID.

Next question?

Jon Zucco · · Denver, CO · Joined Aug 2008 · Points: 245

Joan Lee

JoaneLe

Jo neLea

Jo eLean

J eLeano

eLeanoJ

now flip that J upside down!

eleanor!

Derek Jf · · Northeast · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 335
Shane Zentner wrote:Hi Joan, You aren't retro bolting anything....
Don't bother man, Joan is a troll account - a comical instigator of mp threads. Prob a decent, knowledgable climber in real life. but might be in their off season and currently spending their spare time at this forums expense-
20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

While it's nice to talk about being bold, not giving a fuck, and soloing X-rated routes, there is something worth considering. Find someone who has fallen on said route, gotten really fucked up, and ask them if they thought their decision to climb that pitch was a good decision, and whether they would do it all over again if placed in a similar situation in the future. Good luck. Every person I know who has gotten seriously injured climbing returned to the sport with a completely different attitude when facing risk decisions.

caribouman1052 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5

Does anyone reading this forum do any hiking, backpacking, maybe backcountry skiing? Isn't there an ethic called L.N.T., Leave No Trace? If we can do those sports without leaving a trace, aka "preserving the resource for future generations", why can't we climb without leaving a trace?

I thought the big idea that Chouinard promoted in, what was it? The 1973 catalog? was to climb "clean", to preserve the resource.

Who is worse? The aid climber who climbs the route, leaving not a shred of evidence, or the free climber who rap-bolts the entire thing, and once on the ground, "frees" the route? Who has done more damage to the rock? Who has done more damage to humanity? And which is more sacred, rocks or humans?

Correct or incorrect: If any party following the first ascent deems the route unsafe at a particular point, that party has the right to adjust the route by adding bolts.

Just some thoughts to stir the can of worms.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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