Take responsibility for your area!!

Jason Halladay wrote: Hear, hear! And perhaps add to the kit/backpack a small brush so you can clean the route a bit more because "the FA party should have cleaned it more" and a few good biners (steel is best) because "one carabiner on the anchors is looking pretty worn and should be replaced." Spray paint the biners ahead of time with primer paint to make them less visually annoying and less enticing to would-be biner thieves.

thomas ellis wrote:I second Jason's response about brushes and a general cleaning kit. Nothing like spending loads of time bolting and cleaning new lines to have folks hot on your heels complain about some dirty holds. As one of my partners is always saying "a little appreciation would go a long way". As a funny side note: We were bolting the other day and were asked by a passing climber "who funds this?" We just laughed. Nice guy.

I second both Jason and Tom that folks could do a great service by helping clean a dirty hold or replace worn anchor components. Carrying a new (preferably camouflaged) biner in your pack to replace a worn-out one doesn't require technical knowledge so almost everyone can do it.

It does seem that a lot of people don't want to put in that bit of extra effort to act as caretakers for their areas. How can you otherwise explain crappy anchors that would be fine if you just swapped out biners or replaced camouflaged 3/8" chain. If you lack the skills to do it, I bet you know someone who has those skills, so give them the new gear or some money to get the replacements.

Or just complain about it and see how that helps the situation at your climbing area.

Geir wrote:I can draw diagrams for anyone who has problems with fractions.

We may need these after all.
Will I have to register on your website to see them?

How most people can contribute best is by picking up trash and maybe replacing leaver biners.

Brian Scoggins wrote: Don't get me wrong, spending some time practicing with a torque wrench and a regular wrench to get a feel for what is right is pretty easy. Its just that I don't want random dudes cranking things down to the point that the gear isn't safe, and thinking that it is.

Just for the record I have never used a torque wrench and never ever twisted off a bolt in over 35 years of placing bolts. I have never heard of a bolt that had a wrench used to tighten it fail in Southern AZ.

1Eric Rhicard wrote: Just for the record I have never used a torque wrench and never ever twisted off a bolt in over 35 years of placing bolts. I have never heard of a bolt that had a wrench used to tighten it fail in Southern AZ.

You are sort of addressing the point that I was trying to raise in my earlier post (i.e., how weak is an overtightened bolt). If you snap the head off, well then sure, you know the bolt is compromised. But just because you have never snapped off a head doesn't mean that over the course of 35 years of bolting that you have never placed a bolt (or a bunch of bolts) that lie within the range of overtightened and significantly weakened.

For example, if the manufacturer spec is 20 ft-lbs and snapping the head comes at 60 ft-lbs, then what about the bolt that is overtightened somewhere in between...say 35 ft-lbs. How much drop off is there in strength? Enough to be dangerous?

This kind of question makes me wonder whether there are a fair number of bolts out there that were overtightened almost to the point of shearing, but not quite...is that a time bomb? Just a thought.

(to be clear Eric, this question is not trying to imply any sort of distrust of your bolting, but rather I am trying to probe your 35 years of experience for insight).

J. Albers wrote: Just because you have never snapped off a head doesn't mean that over the course of 35 years of bolting that you have never placed a bolt (or a bunch of bolts) that lie within the range of overtightened and significantly weakened. For example, if the manufacturer spec is 20 ft-lbs and snapping the head comes at 60 ft-lbs, then what about the bolt that is overtightened somewhere in between...say 35 ft-lbs. How much drop off is there in strength? Enough to be dangerous? This kind of question makes me wonder whether there are a fair number of bolts out there that were overtightened almost to the point of shearing, but not quite...is that a time bomb? Just a thought. (to be clear Eric, this question is not trying to imply any sort of distrust of your bolting, but rather I am trying to probe your 35 years of experience for insight).

Since this post is veering off into torque settings and bolting esoterica, can anyone provide an example of a bolt failing in climbing because it was over-tightened? As someone who has placed hundreds of bolts and only uses my torque wrench for working on motorcycles, I would love to hear about it even though it totally misses the point of the topic. Also, give some context to the failure--bolt type, rock type, placement type, etc.

Without any hard data this appears to be a red herring concocted by engineer types who love thinking about weird situations that hardly ever occur in the real world.

Williampenner wrote: Since this post is veering off into torque settings and bolting esoterica, can anyone provide an example of a bolt failing in climbing because it was over-tightened? As someone who has placed hundreds of bolts and only uses my torque wrench for working on motorcycles, I would love to hear about it even though it totally misses the point of the topic. Also, give some context to the failure--bolt type, rock type, placement type, etc. Without any hard data this appears to be a red herring concocted by engineer types who love thinking about weird situations that hardly ever occur in the real world.

If a bolt failed, how would we know it occurred from over tightening?

Williampenner wrote: Without any hard data this appears to be a red herring concocted by engineer types who love thinking about weird situations that hardly ever occur in the real world.

I am inclined to agree with you on this Will, but I really have no idea.

And yes, this forum post is perhaps hopelessly of the rails (sorry). If it makes you feel any better I used to help maintain some of your local crags when I lived in NM (and all I had back then was a cheapo box wrench).

csproul wrote: If a bolt failed, how would we know it occurred from over tightening?

Nice job providing an example of missing the forest for the over-tightened trees, even though your question is a good one :) I am certain some engineer could figure out a way to know this and I would guess this only would apply to bolts that were sheared off rather than pulled out.

Alright then, I modify my request to someone providing us with any incidences of modern 3/8" or 1/2" bolts failing in common usage in the SW. Again, provide the type of bolt, placement, rock, etc.

Someone needs to write a grant proposal? I think it is an interesting question J Albers. I do think it is possible that I have overtightened some bolts. I also think if this was a real problem we would have dozens of failures considering the thousands of falls that occur every year. Maybe the bad bolts have never been fallen on.

No worries about the thread drift. Made my point.

Williampenner wrote: Since this post is veering off into torque settings and bolting esoterica, can anyone provide an example of a bolt failing in climbing because it was over-tightened? As someone who has placed hundreds of bolts and only uses my torque wrench for working on motorcycles, I would love to hear about it even though it totally misses the point of the topic. Also, give some context to the failure--bolt type, rock type, placement type, etc. Without any hard data this appears to be a red herring concocted by engineer types who love thinking about weird situations that hardly ever occur in the real world.

As others stated, it's obviously hard to prove but it's believed that the cause of a bolt failure in Rifle a couple summers ago was from an overtightened bolt. It was a 1/2" SS Powers that had been placed a few years prior (I don't know the exact date) and failed after someone fell on it.

So, I don't think it's completely a red herring although it's hard to have happen. I've snapped plenty of bolts, on purpose, by over tightening and I've broken a lot of old bolts with some ease by over tightening.

Jesus christ people it's not rocket science. If a bolt is loose to the point of spinning tighten it up. If someone is dumb enough to over tighten a bolt to the point of failure their use of a wrench is the least of our problems, they probably shouldn't be driving to the crag or belaying. I have placed thousands of bolts in 20 years of construction setting heavy equipment and hanging large pipe over head on a tensile pull and have never broke off a bolt. Almost all bolt placements are at a shear pull and not a tensile pull , roofs being the exception. And any monkey with a wrench and common sence should be able to remedy a loose bolt.

jefe wrote: We may need these after all. Will I have to register on your website to see them?

Nah, just send me $46.

Joe G wrote:Jesus christ people it's not rocket science. If a bolt is loose to the point of spinning tighten it up. If someone is dumb enough to over tighten a bolt to the point of failure their use of a wrench is the least of our problems, they probably shouldn't be driving to the crag or belaying. I have placed thousands of bolts in 20 years of construction setting heavy equipment and hanging large pipe over head on a tensile pull and have never broke off a bolt. Almost all bolt placements are at a shear pull and not a tensile pull , roofs being the exception. And any monkey with a wrench and common sence should be able to remedy a loose bolt.

Hahahahaha Joe!!!!

You'll lose money at 46 bucks :)

Geir wrote: Nah, just send me $46.

Well played, well played.

Let me get this right, I need a 70m rope, an 8" wrench, hangers, nuts, binners to climb around here? Last time I climbed Klingons on Golder Dome the 2nd piton broke off in my hand, I guess I need Bolt kit too? Just messing with you dude.

With regards to bolt torque; If you are not sure, just give the bolt a snug, but if the nut does not spin freely, back off, so as not to make it worse. Rather enter the information on the " S. Az. climbs in need of repair list", or come back with a bolt kit and replace the bad pro.

With regards to taking responsibility for your area's; I would not ask DB to go back and fix bolts placed in the 70s but if you actively put up routes on a regular basis, I think it is reasonable for you to drop back and maintain your lines occasionally.

Nickin CO: Did I not specifically state that is was better to post a problem even if you can't fix it?

I reacted to your generalization about all new routers having a sense of self importance. That's simple not true, at least around here. Maybe it's different in CO.

Don't get me wrong we are really important it's just we're to modest to flaunt it.

Perhaps my "bottom feeder" comment was off base in regards to you, but those of us that willingly and happily spend loads of time and money doing new routes do get tired of people who never do new routes, but are happy to clip every bolt and climb every route that wouldn't be there if we didn't do them, complaining about some aspect of the route.
To them I say, go do your own routes then and show us all how it should be done, otherwise STFU.

This of course has never happened with one of my routes but I do rise to the defense of other guys routes.

I get very tired of people in general complaining about a web site or a guide book or a new route, when they never have and never will produce any of these things themselves. Kind of like the fat tub of lard on the couch on Sunday raging about how the quarterback needs to learn out to throw. This from a guy that never has and never will have the skill or determination be good enough to play in the NFL. STFU dude.

I agree with Brian, the person that did the new route should maintain it to some degree if they are still living in the area.

Though the routes I do are so cleverly designed and created they rarely need maintenance. But because my skill set is so rarified and unique in the world of new routers, the importance of constant vigilance with other dudes routes cannot be overstated.

Christain if you got a problem with anders then grow a fuckin sac and sort it out with him......enough of this internet slander bullshit

I can confirm that Christian has been nothing short of exemplary when it comes to helping maintain climbs.

I never saw the exchange about the washers. However, discussing it online is no big deal. It's not like anyone is being accused of crimes and I seriously doubt Christian ever meant it that way.

Generally speaking if people post routes here, it's reasonable to ask questions about those routes here as well.

I’m going to second what was said by Geir in his latest post. We should all feel free to put forward our opinions (even climbers who never put up routes) without it leading to personal attacks, or worse yet threats of violence. There are no real bad guys here. Elsewhere in the world people are being starved and having their limbs chopped off. It’s just climbing, go out and have some fun.