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Organ Mountains - Re-bolting

Original Post
Dan Carter · · Las Cruces, NM · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 410

What do climbers think about re-bolting in the Organs?

I would like to start replacing some bolts on routes. A few have been replaced and with newer bolts, some of the old routes would be safer and much more enjoyable to climb. I'm proposing to place new bolts next to old, existing bolts or within the same bolt line if all of the old placements are not necessary, such as in bolt ladders. Also, some new rap bolts would be nice. Here are some of the routes that I would like to replace bolts on.

The Tooth:
-5.11 slab variation to the left of Tooth Fairy 1st pitch - 2 bolts. These placements are good but need new bolts.
-Slab variation to the right of Tooth Fairy 1st pitch, direct line to roof and first belay - there are 2 existing old bolts, I believe there use to be a 4 bolt ladder. Replace with 2-3 new bolts
-Tooth Extraction - one bolt on 3rd pitch
-Tooth or Consequences - 3rd bolt on 3rd pitch. 3 of the 4 bolts have been replaced already
-Install rap bolts in order to safely rappel with 60-70m rope
-Possibly replace the bolts on the 5.12 slab route on the left side of the formation
-Also, several new route variations exist if new bolts were installed. What about new route and bolt development?

Lesser Spire:

-West Face Route - Install 1-2 bolts on 1st pitch where a 4-5 bolt ladder exists

Gertch:
-Install rap anchors on south side of formation

North Rabbit Ear:
-Hand Jive: Replace existing bolts on route and possibly install new bolt if needed

Thoughts on future route development and bolting in the Organs? Any other bolts you know that need replacing?

Let's have a constructive discussion and plan to make these old routes safe and fun to climb. Also, if anyone is interested in helping me with this effort, please message me.

Thanks,
Dan

Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325
Chris Wenker · · Santa Fe · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 1,887

D.
I'm very impressed that you took the time to inquire about your undertaking. This is a great example of using the interwebnetubes as a tool. A shining example.

That said, although I'm in-state, and I have climbed, some, in the Organs, I'm not versed in the subtleties of most those routes you list. So I have little 'weight' to throw around. But...

I'm kinda old-school, so, when you say:
I'm proposing to place new bolts next to old, existing bolts or within the same bolt line if all of the old placements are not necessary, such as in bolt ladders.

That "within the same * line" phrase give me pause.
IMHO, you should only replace, not add, bolts intended for leading. Free leading. Aid, I dunno, have no reference point

At descent stations, however, go for it! -- also with restraint.

Specifically I'd prefer that no-one create a new descent off Gertch, because the south walk-off gully is NBD ....until you get down to the two rap stations. If those stations are what you're talking about, then, yeah! Those need some modern loving.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

Dan, you mean rebolting, not retrobolting. Rebolting is simply replacing old bolts with new ones in as close to the same placement as possible if the hole itself cannot be reused. Retrobolting implies adding bolts, and hence is generally frowned upon. I say generally because some bolt jobs were botched from the get go, but it's a case by case basis.

Marta Reece · · Las Cruces, NM · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 2,425

There is a large number of very old and by now seriously dangerous bolts in need of replacement and what you are suggesting is much needed. The bolt on T or C in particular has caught a huge whipper and is in a bad way. The rap from Gertch needs help too.

On the Lesser Spire, without re-bolting, that route is almost sure to remain unused.

The only ones I would possibly question would be the addition of extra rap stations on the Tooth, particularly the one on the fourth pitch of the Tooth Fairy.

I would add Left Eyebrow and Science Friction to the list. Great climbs in great need of some TLC.

Thank you for offering to help.

Marta

Bruce Hildenbrand · · Silicon Valley/Boulder · Joined Apr 2003 · Points: 3,615
Dan Carter wrote: I'm proposing to place new bolts next to old, existing bolts or within the same bolt line if all of the old placements are not necessary, such as in bolt ladders.
Bottom line, if you don't know how to properly take out the old bolts then you aren't qualified to do any rebolting.
Dan Carter · · Las Cruces, NM · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 410

Thanks for all the replies. Feedback is what I wanted before starting this undertaking. Improper word use onmy part, I do mean re-bolting not retro bolting. Some of the bolt lines are were for aiding. However, these could easily be lead with new bolts and probably less bolts than the aid ladder required. Some of the aid bolts on the Tooth have already pulled out and I would not trust the ones on lesser spire even for aid. Most of the local climbers agree that the organ routes need some attention but aren't sure on the ethically correct way to proceed. I'm not sure who rebolted tooth or consequences but bolts are placed next to the old ones. This is what I have seen on many routes. I'll look into better ways of rebolting. Perhaps some more experienced bolters can help out with this project. Also, share this with any others that are interested in the organs and with those part of first ascent partys.Thanks again for all the input.

Dan Carter · · Las Cruces, NM · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 410

I had the same thoughts Greg. Pick the low hanging fruit first.

Here's a good read for those interested in this project:
safeclimbing.org/education/…

Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325

Rebolting is acceptable if you know what you're doing. Retro bolting is never acceptable.

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812

The Organs are in great need for this ... have been for a long time. Dan/Marta - If you start a fund for the hardware, I will contribute.

I haven't been on very many of the routes mentioned. Some thoughts from memories mostly around 2012 ...

Gertch:
Agree with fixing up the existing hike/rap descent.

Left Eyebrow, Sugarloaf:
Agree, one of the upper pitches has 1/4 inch bolt(s) in a tricky area. And a higher anchor needs a 2nd modern bolt for the semi-hanging belay ... perhaps in place of one of the two 1/4 inch ones.

North Face, Sugarloaf:
The ring piton on the crux pitch needs a good supplement.

And I've heard from someone more experienced that the pair of pitons four or five pitches up are no good ... and folks may be using them to protect some of that famous run-out (I did). Maybe its time to consider doing something for them ... or decide the small crack should protect well enough (not sure) for the average person.

Shillelagh, The Wedge:

It has some old bolts/rivets on the crux pitch. To me, they looked obviously suspect and weren't needed with modern shoes & gear. I'd leave them as-is for the history.

Again, let us know if you set up a fund.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
Meme Guy wrote:. Retro bolting is never acceptable.
Not always true at all. Some FAs screw it up royally and recognize it afterwards. Times change as well as equipment. Leaving it a mess if they and the community think it should change is just silly. There are plenty of cases of moronic climbers or ones completely whacked out on coke and using bad judgement. Blind worship of those ascents is ridiculous. There just has to be a very good reason and strong consensus to alter something. It is worth placing a high bar to protect people's route creations, but it shouldn't be infinitely high.
Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325
M Sprague wrote: Not always true at all. Some FAs screw it up royally and recognize it afterwards. Times change as well as equipment. Leaving it a mess if they and the community think it should change is just silly. There are plenty of cases of moronic climbers or ones completely whacked out on coke and using bad judgement. Blind worship of those ascents is ridiculous. There just has to be a very good reason and strong consensus to alter something. It is worth placing a high bar to protect people's route creations, but it shouldn't be infinitely high.
Unless the FA gives permission, ANY retro bolting is bull shit, even if the FA was high on meth and muffs it.
Marc William T · · El Paso, TX · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 0

Great idea. If you need help or funds, I'm in.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
Meme Guy wrote: Unless the FA gives permission, ANY retro bolting is bull shit, even if the FA was high on meth and muffs it.
Well, I doubt you could present a convincing argument for such absolutism, though the FA's wishes should certainly hold a lot of weight. A lot of times they can't even be found or are dead etc., at which time you have to use your and the community's collective wisdom.
Meme Guy · · Land of Runout Slab · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 325
Frank Stein · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205

I'm not sure that some of the bolts in question should be pulled as they do have historical value, going back to Royal Robbins in the 1950s. That said, I would not hang my hat on some of them. Maybe in a situation like that, supplementing, not removing, the historical mank may be more appropriate.

Robert Cort · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 800

I'll throw in my 2cents: Dan, re-bolting is a great idea. In most cases, the FA's felt safe and likely were safe on those old bolts (and even some old pitons). That is the character of the climbing, and it is appropriate to retain that character. Unless there is historic significance to the old bolts, they should be removed and if possible existing holes re-used. If you ever get up on MRE, old bolt on 1st pitch is half coming out of it's hole (but it can be easily backed up with a cam), more importantly, rapping the route with a single rope requires use of an old two-bolt anchor that is questionable at best. Similarly, coming off the Spire requires use of an old two bolt anchor. In both cases, the bolts are 1/4", but appear solid, it's the hangers that worry me, they are thin, and rusty. Flexing under load is likely growing cracks. (just throwing more work at you Dan)

Bill Lawry wrote:North Face, Sugarloaf: The ring piton on the crux pitch needs a good supplement. And I've heard from someone more experienced that the pair of pitons four or five pitches up are no good ... and folks may be using them to protect some of that famous run-out (I did). Maybe its time to consider doing something for them ... or decide the small crack should protect well enough (not sure) for the average person. Shillelagh, The Wedge: It has some old bolts/rivets on the crux pitch. To me, they looked obviously suspect and weren't needed with modern shoes & gear. I'd leave them as-is for the history. Again, let us know if you set up a fund.
My 2 cents on Sugarloaf: Agree with replacing the old ring piton with a bolt, it's hard to backup, and the piton is of unknown quality. The two pitons down lower don't worry me nearly as much, one can see that they are not rusted out below the surface, and the climbing there is much easier. The old 1/4" bolt with aluminum hanger on the next pitch would be higher priority to me, even though the climbing is pretty easy there too (it's the 1st pro after a long run-out, and the climbing gets noticeably steeper just above). Also, except for maybe the ring piton, I would prioritize the bolts on left eyebrow above the NF route.
Taylor J · · Taos NM · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 390

As far as I know using a power drill in the organs is not allowed, I would run this by someone who has been climbing in the area for a long time and I believe has done some developing in the organs, and see what they think such as John Hymer.... He is going to know more than anyone I know of about what's ok and not ok in the organs. I would ask him what he thinks before anyone.

Fun fact John has soloed sugar loaf in 2 hours and 45 minutes car to car, pretty awesome stuff!

Taylor J · · Taos NM · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 390

Also I live in the area and if any help is needed let me know, I know a few people who would be willing to help in the area as well but as said before I think running it by a long time local Is a good idea. I could get in touch with john if needed...

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,812
Robert Cort wrote:The two pitons down lower don't worry me nearly as much, one can see that they are not rusted out below the surface, and the climbing there is much easier. The old 1/4" bolt with aluminum hanger on the next pitch would be higher priority to me, even though the climbing is pretty easy there too (it's the 1st pro after a long run-out, and the climbing gets noticeably steeper just above).
I haven't seen the one with the aluminum hanger - haven't been that way.

Robert Cort wrote:Also, except for maybe the ring piton, I would prioritize the bolts on left eyebrow above the NF route.
Agreed.
Dan Carter · · Las Cruces, NM · Joined Jan 2008 · Points: 410

Thanks again for all the input. Sounds like we have a good list to look into a pool of resources for the project. If anyone is in the area and wants to climb or work on re bolting, send me a message.

There are plenty of old bolts to be left for historically purposes. Many can now be backed up with gear and do not need to be replaced. These will have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Taylor,
I know John. He is a machine! I've climbed with him and Dave Head (also done a lot of establishing in the Organs) a lot. I'll contact them, along with some other Organ route developers and FA's, and see what there thoughts are.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Arizona & New Mexico
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