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Strong bolts don't always make good anchors!!

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 21,711
Bill C. wrote: I have however rapped off of 2 bolt stations with just a single quick link on each bolt it like this picture...
Picture looks kinds familiar...
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
TR purist wrote: dude, last I heard White Cap has been owned by the Home Depot for about 10 years now, can you really trust their products now? and BTW how is it free, are you charging customers/your boss for your climbing rigs?
HD Supply (parent corp. for White Cap) was bought away from Home Depot in 2007. Last big hunk of chain I inherited from the steel erectors who left it behind. I kept it in my gang box for months, constantly mentioning it to the general (lost tool karma). In the end they never came back; so, booty. Should not have referred to it as always getting free stuff. For climbing hardware I use my own accounts and $. Mostly.
Heh, kinda got me there.
Bill C. · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 110
Brian in SLC wrote: Picture looks kinds familiar...
Just did a google search, didn't realize until now it was a pic you posted :)
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Bill C. wrote:Maybe I'm just crazy, but I rapped off of fixe ring anchors like the ones in the link the OP posted thousands of times, and it has never once twisted my rope.....
I'm with John here, I absolutely hate the two ring fixe setup like in Bill's first photo above. I rapped off of this exact setup at the top of a 35 m trad line on Saturday and guess what, it twisted the crap out of my rope as I pulled it. The couple of times I have used the fixe rings in anchors I've placed I use one ring placed below a fairly equalized chain. Why all route developers can't figure this out is beyond me.
Peter Franzen · · Phoenix, AZ · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 3,730

What I can't figure out is why the Fixe hardware is set up so that you end up lowering/rapping through a non-replacable piece of hardware. How is the permanent ring on a Fixe anchor better than a ring attached to a standard hanger via a quicklink or a length of chain?

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Peter Franzen wrote:What I can't figure out is why the Fixe hardware is set up so that you end up lowering/rapping through a non-replacable piece of hardware. How is the permanent ring on a Fixe anchor better than a ring attached to a standard hanger via a quicklink or a length of chain?
Fixe are like all climbing gear companies, they supply what customers will buy. Some people like the two-ring system and some don´t and Fixe will sell you the parts to do it your way if you prefer.
If you read through a selection of threads on lower-offs or talk to both equippers and climbers you´ll find there is no agreement from the user side on what is best so the manufacturers are effectively left in the position of having to offer all the options.
Even climbing gyms have no agreement on what to use and they are in a good position to work out the balance between user friendliness, safety and value for money without the additional problems of climate and local conditions to worry about.
We don´t know what to make because climbers don´t know what they want, the two horizontal ring problem has been known for about 80 years for example but some countries still hang on to it like it is the best idea in the world. Like the other companies I just offer all the options, there´s little point in telling people what they don´t want to hear.

The other aspect which gets touched on briefly but is never properly adressed is the finance side. A lower-off will survive thousands of ascents but when it comes to replacement finding the $20 is difficult because the climbing community hasn´t worked out yet that we will all have to contribute (and a way to collect). The previous system of the good-spirited local activist(s) is showing strain as the number of climbs and climbers increases dramatically. The bolt fund model has it´s problems as well, they usually start off well but after a decade of begging for a few bucks and giving up climbing time to replace anchors for the patagucci clad, BMW driving masses the keenest activists feel less enthusiasm.
Something needs to happen but what it is and who will do it is the question.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

Teaching your Granny to suck eggs?
It has nothing to do with the subject and the UIAA have no official opinion whatsoever on lower-offs, their suitability, effectiveness and safety.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420
JCM wrote: With the strength and reliability of modern 3/8th or 1/2 inch bolts, the whole equalization concept is kind of a waste of time and brain space. While equalization may be worthwhile or neccesary if building anchors out of knifeblades or small clean gear, with good beefy bolts it doesn't matter. One well-placed bolt is plenty to hold any loads that we will put on it; the second is just as a safegaurd against freak failures, defective bolts, etc. As such, it is fine to be unequalized with all the weight on one bolt...it won't fail anyway. If it does fail, the other bolt is stong enough to handle a minor shock load, if neccesary. Plus, shock-loading is minimal in a lowering scenario, since you have likely 30+ meters of dynamic rope out. I point this out becuase it seems that an excessive amount of attention is applied to creating equalized two bolt anchors for lowering off, when this is a failry unimportant concern as compared to having good lowering hardwear and having correct bolt position to optimize the run of the rope, preventing twisting, etc.
It really is a amazing that most people don't understand this. Two modern bolts in good rock will hold far, far, more weight than we can ever put on them.

As far as stewardship goes, it would be nice if more people stepped up. Simply leading by example has it's rewards though.
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

My 2 cents. The inline anchor reduces the overall load on the anchor itself, as it would split the load, (say 500lb), between the two anchors (250lb/per).

Setting the anchor where the rope makes 45 degree bends, the 500lb of force on the rope, both anchor points will see a 500lb load, effectively doubling the load on the anchor.

Rapping doesn't generate the very much in the way of shock loads usually, but in a TR situation it is more likely, though can be avoided with a proper belay free of slack.

Ken Chase · · Toronto, ON · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0

Great thread, still no great solutions. I know this is ancient, but this is the best discussion I've seen in my research lately.

A few points:

1) "use chain!" -- we're trying here (and in RRG fwig) to go all 304. Ever bought 304 chain? $$! Try some 316 chain if you're not convinced. (Does PLX-HCR chain exist?)

1a) chain requires being attached with QL's. More 304 QL's, or another 2x$2 US (for plated, $5-6x2 for 304) QLs to attach something on each end of the chain (one prewelded hanger+ring + a chain to a bolt is a great solution, but the total is $, and here in Canada it's even worse now that MEC.ca is all PLX-HCR. $8.50CAD ($6US) for Hanger+ring, $3.45 a bolt, etc.)

1b) I've had pretty good results with 3/8" arm-diam. grade70 (gold) transport chain on permadraws after 5 years of being in hot sun and wet, esp combined with a 304 QL to the 304 hanger. Only way to keep it cheap though is to use plated QL's which suffer corrosion. Could use for anchors.

2) use Fixe steel biners? Corrosion again. But easily replaceable I guess. Again with the "but only the activists pay for fixing the crag, no one knows how to carry a QL of good size around."

3) Big mussy hooks rock, even in plated steel it would take forever to corrode - then just replace them! (But they're like $15-20US each, nevermind 304).

4) lowering off QL's suck, if ther'es a slight twist to them your rope is even more f'd. And they wear much faster.

5) Two rap rings vert offset also twist rope because you can't orient the lower (non load bearing til failure) one to have the plane of the ring parallel to the ground because people TR'ing and taking miniwhips on it when the lower anchor is loaded by diff length quickdraws (as people try to 'equalize' the diff heights and end up primarily loading the lower one). Eventually the hanger spins and the ring is perpendicular to both the face and the ground like the top ring. Lowering thru now twists rope. (Hanger - QL - ring might work though because there's some movement/untwisting room available. Another $6-7 304 QL in your cost though. Fixe does make one like this, it's $18.50 CAD now https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5045-021/Ring-Anchor-w-Quicklink-Stainless-Steel)

6) Could bolt chain onto a bolt directly with just a washer instead of hanger+QL - big enough diameter washer would be safe. Seen in field plenty of times, safe though?
http://www.climbing.co.za/images/The-Dude-anchors-Before.jpg

7) Best bolting soln is the fixe 'rap station': two hangers, with chain and ring, but again that's like $32CAD ($22-23?) up here. Ridiculous.

8) Ideal solution overall is 1/2" dia glueins.. but glue.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

Ken Chase wrote:

Great thread, still no great solutions. I know this is ancient, but this is the best discussion I've seen in my research lately.

A few points:

1) "use chain!" -- we're trying here (and in RRG fwig) to go all 304. Ever bought 304 chain? $$! Try some 316 chain if you're not convinced. (Does PLX-HCR chain exist?)

1a) chain requires being attached with QL's. More 304 QL's, or another 2x$2 US (for plated, $5-6x2 for 304) QLs to attach something on each end of the chain (one prewelded hanger+ring + a chain to a bolt is a great solution, but the total is $, and here in Canada it's even worse now that MEC.ca is all PLX-HCR. $8.50CAD ($6US) for Hanger+ring, $3.45 a bolt, etc.)

1b) I've had pretty good results with 3/8" arm-diam. grade70 (gold) transport chain on permadraws after 5 years of being in hot sun and wet, esp combined with a 304 QL to the 304 hanger. Only way to keep it cheap though is to use plated QL's which suffer corrosion. Could use for anchors.

2) use Fixe steel biners? Corrosion again. But easily replaceable I guess. Again with the "but only the activists pay for fixing the crag, no one knows how to carry a QL of good size around."

3) Big mussy hooks rock, even in plated steel it would take forever to corrode - then just replace them! (But they're like $15-20US each, nevermind 304).

4) lowering off QL's suck, if ther'es a slight twist to them your rope is even more f'd. And they wear much faster.

5) Two rap rings vert offset also twist rope because you can't orient the lower (non load bearing til failure) one to have the plane of the ring parallel to the ground because people TR'ing and taking miniwhips on it when the lower anchor is loaded by diff length quickdraws (as people try to 'equalize' the diff heights and end up primarily loading the lower one). Eventually the hanger spins and the ring is perpendicular to both the face and the ground like the top ring. Lowering thru now twists rope. (Hanger - QL - ring might work though because there's some movement/untwisting room available. Another $6-7 304 QL in your cost though. Fixe does make one like this, it's $18.50 CAD now https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5045-021/Ring-Anchor-w-Quicklink-Stainless-Steel)

6) Could bolt chain onto a bolt directly with just a washer instead of hanger+QL - big enough diameter washer would be safe. Seen in field plenty of times, safe though?
http://www.climbing.co.za/images/The-Dude-anchors-Before.jpg

7) Best bolting soln is the fixe 'rap station': two hangers, with chain and ring, but again that's like $32CAD ($22-23?) up here. Ridiculous.

8) Ideal solution overall is 1/2" dia glueins.. but glue.

Use a Fixe rap ring/ hanger combo on the lower bolt, on the upper bolt use a small length of chain and a single quicklink. For some reason Americans seem to think that anchors absolutely have to consist of two horizontally spaced bolts that are about 12" apart and no other option exists. Not only is that silly, but two horizontal bolts are not even the best option let alone the only one. A much better option is vertically spaced bolts exactly like this:

You don’t need to use that exact setup from Fixe, but it's an example. That exact Fixe anchor in stainless steel is $22, and you could probably find it cheaper elsewhere with some searching around. If it's going on an anchor that people lower off of, I wouldent use the above pictured anchor from Fixe as replacing the ring will be hard. However, you can make your own version using quicklinks for about the same cost and the quicklinks are replaceable. 

Also. do not use glue-ins as the sole anchor source. If you do that people are going to lower off them and once they get worn they are extremely difficult to remove and replace. Further, anytime the anchor does not meet to a single point (regardless if it's two bolts, two quicklinks, two rings, whatever), when climbers lower off their rope will get twisted to all shit. The anchor absolutely must meet into one single point at the rope connection point or twists will occur upon lowering.

Also, yes HCR chain exists. eBay has some 317 and 2205 chain for sale. "PLX-HCR" is not a real thing, it's just a term Fixe came up with. Even HCR by itself is extremely board and does not say much. It's kind of like saying "car." Not very specific.

Ken Chase · · Toronto, ON · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0

Yeah I've got some of those from Fixe. They used to be $18 CAD 2 years ago then the CAD:USD went to s*t and mec.ca (our REI) went all PLX-HCR fancyness (while claiming "bolt oceanside crags with it!" despite the UIAA tests indicating SCC occurs in all HCR steel) - they're $32 here now (!). I have used a couple of mine I bought years ago on a few routes but it's really an expensive solution. (I do like the replaceability of the QL's though, good point.)

Yeah true, gluins are an issue - need a ring on a QL, mounting costs again (perhaps a single 304 QL of large dia on the upper (weight bearing) gluein would be sufficient and replaceable). The lower gluein could be lined up so as not to put any force on the rope, even when pulling (or throw a QL on it to give some flexibility in rope path without wear).

As for HCR I realize it's a new 'brand' of unspecified alloy (see other MP threads here where it's discussed), but all HCR stuff is > $ than even 316.

Im guessing no one is a fan of two bolts, two lengths of chain ending in QL's on them directly with washers and nuts over them per the image. Cheap but kinda ghetto. (Unsafe though?)

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

It's probably not unsafe with wedge anchors as long as the rock you're bolting is suitable for wedge anchors (in other words, not soft rock). It is pretty ghetto looking though that's for sure and I am not sure long a setup like that would last. If you're looking to save money MEC is probably not the place to be looking. The last time I went to an MEC they wanted to charge me for parking to shop at their store. I couldent roll my eyes hard enough. Anyway, get your components online. eBay has several reputable stores that sell 316 quicklinks, chain and bolts for very reasonable prices. You can get 3/8" shackles made out of 316 SS for $4 each on eBay and they are actually pretty solid quality for the price.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

read the directions on the box of bolts. you only need to place wedge bolts 10X the diamater of the hole apart in good stone/ concrete. that means about 4  in apart for  3/8ths in bolts and  5in for 1/2 in bolts... putting them a mile apart is a PINTA to use......

Ken Chase · · Toronto, ON · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0
20 kN wrote:

You can get 3/8" shackles made out of 316 SS for $4 each on eBay and they are actually pretty solid quality for the price.

I fear ebay in that I'd get chinese stuff, and Im a little afraid. Got any links to examples? Did a few searches, mostly came up with marine stuff, not quite the shape climbers would like.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346
Ken Chase wrote:

I fear ebay in that I'd get chinese stuff, and Im a little afraid. Got any links to examples? Did a few searches, mostly came up with marine stuff, not quite the shape climbers would like.

I'll send you a link.

Ken Chase · · Toronto, ON · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0

thanks -- link was to a U-shaped shackle with pin (making a D shape) -- seems rated at BLL high enough - but how would you attach it? (hanger + bolt + chain + ring, etc? starts adding to cost)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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