Where to find 1/4" bolts?

Scott Bennett wrote:As to why we're looking to drill smaller diameter bolts: The routes we're considering will be long, ground-up attempts, in remote environments and tight weather-windows.

You can get them here: fixehardware.com/shop/bolts…

My experience with Fixe has been that my order arrives about a week after I place it. I live in NH.

Note that the OP has an appropriate backcountry alpine use in mind, and has been thoughtful in his selection of this gear. If you're reading this thread later and haven't already picked up on the consensus, these bolts are probably not appropriate for anything other than this very specific use case.

Sorry to have been vague in my original post. I just had a simple question, and didn't want to engage in too much internet "pre-spray".

Here's a photo from a recent trip to Alaska's Revelation range, the sort of environment where a few tiny bolts in the pack could make a big difference.

Revelations

Wasn't there someone around here that found that with good bits a 3/8" actually placed faster than a 1/4"? I think the suspicion was that the additional stiffness resulted in better force transfer? Please don't take this as criticism, I've never placed bolts, and certainly not with tools.

Pat

The amount of rock you have to drill out to place a Rawl 5-piece 5/16ths is much closer to a 1/4" than 3/8". A good compromise IMO. Easily removed and replaced when needed and good strength in alpine granite. Scott, I've got a box of them in my garage and am happy to send you a handful if you want to play around with them.

PatCleary wrote:Wasn't there someone around here that found that with good bits a 3/8" actually placed faster than a 1/4"? I think the suspicion was that the additional stiffness resulted in better force transfer? Please don't take this as criticism, I've never placed bolts, and certainly not with tools. Pat

3/8" bits drill faster than 1/4", but a 1/4" bolt is only 1 1/2" long, much shorter than your 3/8 x 2 3/4.

I haven't drilled any quarter inchers, but I've pulled 10 or so, they come out incredibly easy. It took me around 30 minutes to place a 3/8 x 2 3/4 bolt in yosemite granite, and that was with a D5 hammer and hurricane drill, stuff you're not going to be carrying in the revelations. drilling with a lightweight holder and an ice tool is truly a last resort, but you'd be stupid to not have that along "just in case".

Keenan Waeschle wrote: 3/8" bits drill faster than 1/4", but a 1/4" bolt is only 1 1/2" long, much shorter than your 3/8 x 2 3/4.

you could still get about 1000 lbs from a 3/8" KB3 (or similar) drilled 1-1/2" deep. just sayin

1/2" SS bolts at a minimum - noob!

Fair enough…I was going to point out not to use thick hangers plus a washer with a short 1/4" bolt, but you found the Moses hangers already. So here's what you're looking at weight-wise…a Moses hanger with a 1.25" buttonhead (Powers brand, this is what you're buying from FixeUSA):

Moses hanger with 1/4 x 1.25" buttonhead

Why the hell are you using 1/4 inchers???

As other posters have pointed out, they are not only much sketchier but much more difficult to drill a good hole for.

Pretty much no excuse if its for belay/rap anchors, and pretty sketchy if its for pro. You can always bring along a few pins if you really need fixed anchors. Much faster to place too.

3/8 shorties don't take that much longer to drill and you can find ones that are actually designed for climbing (stainless, higher quality production).

You wanna save weight, snag some SMC Alpine bolt hangers, but DO NOT place them on overhanging rock.

Greg Barnes wrote:Fair enough…I was going to point out not to use thick hangers plus a washer with a short 1/4" bolt, but you found the Moses hangers already. So here's what you're looking at weight-wise…a Moses hanger with a 1.25" buttonhead (Powers brand, this is what you're buying from FixeUSA):

Ah, I guess I don't see the point of using a pretty massive hanger with a pretty crappy (but lighter) bolt as if it saves so much weight to justify using 1/4" not 3/8".

How many of you are going ground up, on BIG routes with 3/8ths Kits?

How many of you are using High speed steel set ups? or know the associated bit sizes for all different types of bolts readily available?

Hmmm, easy to say that 3/8ths drills faster than 1/4" when you have never drilled a 1/4" with a proper rig.

I use 1" length buttonheads on lead, and to augment belays where there is at least one 3/8ths bolt. They take around 4 minutes to place. Hauled on, jugged on, winged on, etc... Free climbs, I tend to go with 3/8ths where it is fitting and less committing, or try and replace them after the line is done. Hard to think about that on a 1,500ft line.

There is a HUGE difference in weight, and effort expended in combining both tactics.

Those of you who have handrilled a big route, fully committed, know that it is a level of exertion unfounded in regular climbing. I have drilled hundreds of both kinds of bolts. I say there is a time and place that warrants the use of both types of hardware.

For those of you claiming that 1/4" is "sketchy" or unsafe, maybe you should spend the time learning the craft of bolting, and perfecting the different styles on all types of rock. 10-15 years is a long life.

Wings of steel on EL Cap is a nice example of a 1/4" hardware installation that was properly crafted, AMMON took 500 feet of whippers on 1/4" Z-macks, button heads and machine rivets. He told me that the hardware was in very good condition for the most part. 30 years. He brought a bolt kit, as any early repeater should. Didn't replace a thing.

Then again, most people bolting are not doing big routes, so they have the added advantage of time and energy to perform the task ahead of them, then return to camp.

The OP is going big in the mountains. It is his choice, but when time and safety are marginal, the extra effort and weight will make a difference.

The easiest, and most bomber for your buck (time, weight, size, and effort) is the 1/4" x 1" button head with a modern 1/4" hanger.

+1 for what mucci said... Nothing makes internet climbers whine more than a 1/4" bolt up on a mountain, on an undone climb, in the middle of nowhere.

Sorry people can't just answer a question with a straight answer for you Scott.
Those folk will probably never be where you are up there anyway. AND you are the one "taking the risk out there," not them. Sigh....

Go crush it! :)

Scott Bennett wrote: When drilling from a bad stance, with the back of an icetool, that makes a huge difference. 

Scott, have you drilled bolts with an ice tool hammer? I'm trying to find out more beta on this - it sounds hard, but with 1/4" its sounds like it's doable? I'm about to go out in the backyard and practice...

Listen to Greg Barnes' advice if you are set on doing 1/4 inch bolts.