Mountain Project Logo

Leading a climb with draws already on the wall. Good or Bad?

Original Post
Amadeus DeKastle · · Bishkek, KG · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 1,455

This last week I bolted my first new route (5.12 a/b) over here in Kyrgyzstan where I live and I'm consequently trying to make the first ascent of the route. I've always had the opinion that a real lead climb is one where you have placed all your draws on that particular go, but I'm always seeing in climbing movies (Reel Rock for example) where a first ascent (or even non first ascents) are done with the draws pre-placed. So what is the deal with that? Why does that "count" as a clean climb if the gear is already placed? I can't ever remember seeing a trad climb where someone climbed it on pre-placed gear and I've never pre-placed my trad gear for a climb, so I'm trying to figure out why it is ok in sport climbing to basically do the same thing. Placing the draws is part of the difficulty of a route, right? I guess in the long run it doesn't matter too much, and every different place has their own ethics, but I've just always been curious. I mean, if you can legitimately climb it clean with the draws already on the wall, then why not just climb it clean with the rope already through the draws (technically top roping)!

Thoughts?

Ian Hanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 2,685

As far as I know when you have gear placed (quick draws in the case of sport climbs) the ascent is considered to be a pink point, as in a lighter version of a red point. Many of the climbers I know like to yo-yo a climb by pulling the rope and gear, and trying from ground up every attempt. While others will project new routes on top rope or mock lead before they feel confident leading. This is usually the case when the route is poorly protected or at the edge of somebody´s ability. Many ultra hard sport routes or cave routes for dry-tooling/mixed climbing have fixed draws that hang from the climb all the time. Competitions also have pre-placed draws that the competitors have to clip in order to move on. As far as I am concerned pink pointing is a legitimate FA as long as the leader doesn´t weight the rope at all. I myself have been known to pre-place trad gear to work out sequences without worrying about decking. I usually go back later on and attempt a ground up ascent, but the first ascent (personal) was the one that happened without weighting the equipment at all.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0
Placing the draws is part of the difficulty of a route, right?

It is in trad, not in sport. No one cares about pinkpoints anymore.
Ian Hanson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 2,685

Nobody cares as in they don't mind if it was pink pointed, or it doesn´t count if it was pink pointed? Just curious since I think what is impressive is the ability to climb a route itself, not necessarily the ability to protect it. That is a whole different game.

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
David Sahalie wrote: It is in trad, not in sport. No one cares about pinkpoints anymore.
just like most spurt climbers think they actually are a 5.13 climber after projecting the same 13a hundreds of times for 2 years and finally sending it even though their onsight level is around 11c.

sportos hate the word pinkpoint so much they are trying to pretend it doesnt exist anymore.

yet another good troll of the day!
Eric G. · · Saratoga Springs, NY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 70

How do you know the grade if no one has ever climbed it?

Garret Nuzzo Jones · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 1,436

I remember reading an article a while ago that made the case that top roping is actually the purest form of climbing. All the gear, elements of risk and fear is removed. All that's left is pure, fun climbing. The way climbing standards are though leading a route with a little fear of falling thrown in is the way it is.

I'm guessing reason you're probably seeing all the draws left in the climbs in those Reel Rock films is because they're perma-draws. That or the climbs are just so overhanging it's an absolute nightmare to take the draws down in between red point attempts.

cjdrover · · Watertown, MA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 355
David Sahalie wrote:It is in trad, not in sport. No one cares about pinkpoints anymore.
+1

TR purist wrote: just like most spurt climbers think they actually are a 5.13 climber after projecting the same 13a hundreds of times for 2 years and finally sending it even though their onsight level is around 11c. sportos hate the word pinkpoint so much they are trying to pretend it doesnt exist anymore. yet another good troll of the day!
It's unfortunate that you are bothered so much by the accomplishments of others. Contrary to what you said about "most spurt climbers", virtually all of the climbers I know understand the differences between onsighting in a no-falls scenario and projecting at the crag, and they state their ability in the context of what type of climbing is being discussed. I will give my ability as anywhere from 5.9 to 5.12 depending on the circumstances.
M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
cjdrover wrote: It's unfortunate that you are bothered so much by the accomplishments of others.
sorry, not bothered at all. I think the word you may be looking for is amused.
Amadeus DeKastle · · Bishkek, KG · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 1,455
The Cowardly Noob wrote:How do you know the grade if no one has ever climbed it?
Well I don't know for sure which is part of the reason I put 5.12 a/b as in maybe at the level of a or b. If you have been climbing at this local crag (which I doubt since it is in Kyrgyzstan...) you would know that the level of climbing here at this crag is around a 5.11c+ at the most (except for a couple secret routes with no names or grades). This new route is definitely harder than those climbs which would make it easily a 5.12a , and although nobody has lead the climb yet, my brother and I have been working it on toprope, so we have a pretty good idea of its difficulty.

Also, to those of you who explained a "pink point" thanks. I'd never heard of that before.

And as far as perma-draws or whatever they are called, those are unheard of here as even the lowest bolts from our climbing area get chopped off from time to time and taken to the metal recycler's to get a little bit of money to buy some booze. Its a poor country and the crag is right next to a tiny village where everyone is poor. But that helps me put that into perspective.

Thanks for all the thoughts so far. Climbing ethics are a very new thing in our part of the climbing community so I'm just trying to figure them out! In fact his is (likely) the first new route bolted here at this crag since 2006!

Cheers
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

if you dont think that already having draws on the wall isnt a clean send in sport ...

then realistically no one has "climbed" 5.15 yet clean ... nor does sharma, ondra, etc ... send any hard routes ... at that level which almost no one on this forum climbs at, the draws are already pre-hung

notice that its often those who cant climb at that level anyways who mutter about it

;)

Amadeus DeKastle · · Bishkek, KG · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 1,455
cjdrover wrote:Amadeus, I don't think bearbreeder was referring to you.
Yep, just realized that. I've removed my last post.
Frank Stein · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205

Goodness...Some historical perspective may be in order. The term redpoint, or "rotpunkt" came from early sport climbing in Germany, where climbers would paint a red dot under routes that were sent. There was no "pinkpoint." Pinkpoint is an American construct, and I suspect that it comes from early reluctance to fully adopt the "French technique" of sport climbing. In the mid 90s everyone was yammering about whether a send was a redpoint or a pinkpoint, which is not so much the case anymore. If you subscribe to early American sport climbing ethic, then by all means, it is a pinkpoint if you have the draws in situ. I myself find it an uncessary pain in the butt to clean draws between each redpoint go.

BTW, trad with preplaced gear is just sport climbing, especially if the gear is good.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Sport Climbing
Post a Reply to "Leading a climb with draws already on the wall.…"

Log In to Reply

Join the Community

Create your FREE account today!
Already have an account? Login to close this notice.

Get Started.