Tying into rope through carabiner

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Ok, for top-roping, but not for leading.

El Tigre wrote: Here comes a days worth of input from the engineers.

Nah, we engineers are waiting to comment on threads we're qualified to comment on, such as "How to stop my bunghole from itching?", and "HELP! I don't want to take my girlfriend's dog climbing".

Accidents in climbing happen more often when people try to take shortcuts.

From the news story referenced earlier in the thread about the guy in Utah who may have cross-loaded a biner and decked when it apparently broke:

""With that weight and with him pushing off as much as he did, he fell approximately 80 feet,"

Wasn't there but it sounds like there was some "hero rappelling" with big leaps and bounds going on, multiplying the loading forces and contributing to the failure. Watching too many "Be all you can be" commercials?

TWK wrote:From the news story referenced earlier in the thread about the guy in Utah who may have cross-loaded a biner and decked when it apparently broke: ""With that weight and with him pushing off as much as he did, he fell approximately 80 feet," Wasn't there but it sounds like there was some "hero rappelling" with big leaps and bounds going on, multiplying the loading forces and contributing to the failure. Watching too many "Be all you can be" commercials?

there was a photo before of the broken biner i believe ... it didnt look like an xloading failure ...

to see what the what the failures of different loading look like go here ...

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

a recent accident where it appears that a single carabiner was used in a top roping type setup

nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti…

as indicated by the UIAA paper, use 2 opposed, preferably with at least one being a locker ...

Here is a no judgement answer.

If you are lead climbing, always tie in. Period. If you still aRe unsure call the manufacturer of your harness. They will set you straight. The risk of a cross load is too much of a possibility. And some carabiners, ones I do not buy, do not have capped gates which have sharp edges and can shred your rope on a leader fall.

If you are top roping you should tie in but it is not insane to use two locking carabiners opposite and opposed. Use the new captive gate carabiners with a tight knot Aron the biner. This will keep the cross loading at bay. Before you do this, check with the manufacturer of the harness.

If you are wondering if you should connect to the belay loop or the tie in point, contact the manufacturer of the harness. I do know petzl says to clip the belay loop. Using the tie in point pretty much loads the carabiner in a weird angle. Also heed my warning on uncapped biner gates. I shredded a rope when I started out and just want to share my survival story.

So while it is good to come to this forum, it is always best to talk to the manufacturer. I have always found them to be most helpful and leave the attitude and judgment aside.

man, i had a whole response typed up and almost hit post on this oldie...

There is no debate here. Leading with this set-up marks you as a gumby and puts you and others at risk (should you deck on them). Your set up is only as strong as the pin in your gates (not strong), which are relatively easily loaded in this type of set up.

Just do it like real climbers and tie the rope through your harness properly. A few extra seconds sure beats a spinal injury or even worse...the ridicule of your fellow climbers.

Jake Jones wrote: To me, sport climbing does not denote or infer top-roping. Someone explain to me where sport climbing, potentially taking lead falls on one locker through the belay loop which can be cross-loaded is safe.

Ever see one of these?

cross loading?

I don;t get it? What possible advantage is there to using a biner tie in for leading? I see numerous problems, the main being cross loading, but not one single advantage.

And even for top roping, unless you are indeed a total gumbie, it takes less than 20 seconds to tie in. (I just timed it and not rushing, took me 15 sec.) Not a good argument to me for adding an unnecessary link in the safety system keeping you alive.

But you didn't take into account the untie factor after everyone falls on the rope ten times each. He probably keeps the biner permanently tied on because the knot is so tight.

Right, of course, how silly of me, silly gumbie.

we should probably start belaying with two opposite and opposed lockers too. maybe even steel ones to cover our asses.

Edward Pyune wrote: Am I gunadie?

Yes.

I often use a locking carabiner for the middle climber in a group of 3 multipitching on one rope. Simplifies escaping or swapping leads.

ive lead on a rope folded in half with a fig 8 on a bight and 2 opposed lockers clipped to the belay loop ...

why? .... bringing two seconds on multi up where the pitch length is less than 30m ... no need to bring two ropes

i would like anyone here to tell me how 2 opposed lockers clipped to your belay loop will fail anymore than anything else in "safe" climbing

;)

Never tie in to the belay loop. Single point connection that will end your life just because you wanted to save a minute. If you wanna toprope on it atleast rig some sort of backup to your top point (Webbing or add a 8mm cord as a backup belay.

plenty of climbers have died from wearing out belay loops.

Example:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_…

PosiDave wrote:Never tie in to the belay loop. Single point connection that will end your life just because you wanted to save a minute. If you wanna toprope on it atleast rig some sort of backup to your top point (Webbing or add a 8mm cord as a backup belay. plenty of climbers have died from wearing out belay loops. Example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_…

You are sadly uninformed. If you look at a standard belay loop you'll see that most are constructed of two loops of webbing, one stitched on top of the other, ergo redundancy.

You say "plenty" of climbers have died from belay loop failure and then site the one and only instance that most people know about. Where are the reports for these others?

The fact is that a belay loop in good condition is much stronger than it ever needs to be. The issue is really cross-loading a single carabiner, thus the recommendation for dual biners.