Crossfit and Rockclimbing

So for all you "helps me carry a big pack on the approach" people:

WTF is in those packs and why do you need help? I'm in terrible hiking and aerobic shape, have never been particularly strong in the legs (very mediocre mtn biker, hiker, runner, etc even when I was doing those things a lot)and a few months ago carried bivy gear, climbing gear, food for two days and 2 gallons of water up what is supposed to be one of the worst approaches in Red Rock. Seemed pretty casual to me, even with my little bird legs and being out of shape.

If you're a 5.8 trad guy, just go climbing. 3-4 days a week, and cut WAY back on that other stuff. Get mileage, get to sub 10% bodyfat, and work on your mental game. You said you've climbed 50 pitches, total. I've gone to Indian Cove and free soloed 15-20 pitches in a couple hours. With that little mileage, you've got like 4 actual climbing days behind you. I'm a big proponent of physical training, but at this point mileage is what you need. IMO, of course.

Excess volume (like doing 30 laps on a climb in a couple hours) is a common culprit with newer (say <3 years) climbers. Soon they have chronic inflammation/tendonosis issues and spend years trying to sort it out. Add volume very, very gradually. Use "backoff" sessions and backoff weeks (my ratio is about 3:1 for both sessions and weeks, e.g. 3 hard sessions then 1 easy one, three weeks of 3hard/1easy and one week of 3 easy/1hard..adjust to suit your ability to recover, might be 2:1 or even 1:1 in the first few years)

Crossfit is...well, varied depending on where you train. Brian Abram wrote a terrific post above that I can't really improve upon. Personally, coming from a long, long background of training with free weights to supplement sports training, I think crossfit is a joke if increasing athletic performance in a specific sport is your goal. If you are just trying to increase general ability to tolerate workloads near your threshhold or be hard to kill (military, fire, cops, etc) then it seems beneficial. Otherwise, a waste of time, and in all cases, likely to end in injury. Even at 18 yo, with a pro coach, and 3+ years practicing them, I had at best mediocre technique on the Olys. Doing them for time or in a very fatigued state is a recipe for disaster...and that seems to be the case everytime I see the X-fit peeps doing Olys.

@Daniel Evans,

Taking your time and focusing on technique will take away from the goal of the workout, and vice versa.

If you were working on your max weight snatch, you wouldn't do box jumps and wall-balls between attempts, would you? No, because a heavy snatch requires good technique and you don't want to get sloppy. Right? And if you did work out that way and took your time with every snatch, you wouldn't get the benefit from box-jumps and wall-balls, because you'd get a "rest" in the middle of your workout.

Climbing technique is subtle and shouldn't be hurried. I agree with others on here that bouldering is the best way to build climbing-specific strength and technique.

If you are leading 5.8, then there's basically no way strength is what is limiting you. Many "deconditioned" folks with good technique can climb 5.8 all day.

Just do Crossfit 2-3x/ week to keep up your overall fitness...if you like it.

Chase, if you want in on a bet, too, I'm game. 6-pack says you're at least 8%. There's no way you're 4%. That is an almost impossible level of body fat to reach, let alone maintain, for most of the population (males). That would take tremendous effort, unless you suffer from a very serious metabolic disorder. Again, 6-8% is very, very lean, even in professional athletes.

Not trying to be a dick here, this happens to be a subject that interests me. Many people greatly underestimate their body fat %.

Not sure if this applies, as I am a typical female student - not a guy stationed at a marine base, but I actually had huge gains in my climbing due to Crossfit. I had been climbing for about 6 years, and could barely climb into the 10's. I used to read a ton of books and forum posts from guys who said that the best way to get better at climbing is to climb, and that almost all gains in climbing are from technique, so there's no reason to get stronger. But 6 months of Crossfit built so much core, arm and shoulder strength for me that I was able to lead confidently, and increase my climbing into the 11's fairly easily. I guess I was one of those out of shape slobs, but I didn't realize it, because I could hike a Vedauwoo rack, rope, and a gallon of water 3 miles into Wyoming without a problem. Yeah, getting stronger helps climbing! It was a shock for me. :)

lol at people claiming to be 4% body fat and having a magical metabolism.

I forgot what the point of this thread was, but I got a good chuckle out of it.

@Jason:
Id be down to take that bet haha
I was at a health clinic show nd they strappedme upwith some handheld device that gave the readout 4%. ha
I mean, i thought ot was crazy but everyone elses cane out right so.
Well have to make the arrangements one of these days after climbing.

Did I wander into the training forum?

Body fat and beer should be 6% +

How much P-cross-FX do I need to do to climb 5.11 slab?

ChaseLeoncini wrote:@Jason: Id be down to take that bet haha I was at a health clinic show nd they strappedme upwith some handheld device that gave the readout 4%. ha I mean, i thought ot was crazy but everyone elses cane out right so. Well have to make the arrangements one of these days after climbing.

You need to get tested in one or those displacement pods.. only reliable method. Those handheld things are garbage. Check around at the colleges, someone will have one in sd

Well thats not how you win a bet you gotta use the same machine. Im trynna win here!

ChaseLeoncini wrote:@Jason: Id be down to take that bet haha I was at a health clinic show nd they strappedme upwith some handheld device that gave the readout 4%. ha I mean, i thought ot was crazy but everyone elses cane out right so. Well have to make the arrangements one of these days after climbing.

Ok, you're on. Six pack of your choice or mine, limit $15 so no crazy-high end stuff. We're both in SD so it will be easy to pay up (preferably after a day of climbing, right?).

Folks, I've never met Chase but based on his listed stats 6'0" and 165 lbs. and his claim that he "eats 24/7" I will put him at 10-11%. That's still very lean, but within the realm of reason for someone with a genetic predisposition for such things.

Impedance scales are worthless, and calipers can get us within shooting distance if used by a qualified person (easier said than done). Believe it or not, and I am a little ashamed to admit it, but there are entire forums similar to MP dedicated to matters such as this. Experienced folk can actually estimate, with amazing accuracy, body fat % using stats like height, weight and a photo of your torso.

See here: forums.lylemcdonald.com/for…

It's the sticky right at the top. The body fat estimation thread, with over 1 million views.

Chase, if you're willing, log in and upload a current photo and I will go along with whatever results you receive. You will probably receive a range of responses but it will give you a decent idea of your body fat % and I will pay up if you're at or below 8%. Simple as that: free beer.

FWIW, I am just a bit shorter than you (5'11") and have trained with heavy weights on and off for a few years. At 165 lbs. I was right around 10%, and it took serious, dedicated effort to maintain that weight. I normally walk around at 180, and even that takes some diet control.

... now continue your laughter over this guy's masterpiece... #StopCrossFit

some super-seriously funny shit regarding crossfit cult-ure.

haha idiots...your motto should be: Crossfit - Mediocrity at our best!

The test I took was taken with calipers. I also have an extremly high metabolism, and eat small portions ( this is due to lack of appetite, not a concious choice). Anyway, the point I was trying to get across is: for climbing strength, go bouldering..for endurance, rope up. I recommmended Aikido because it has helped me climb over my center..effectively using my feet/core vs. arms. I have an increased endurance due to this, and also have observed gains in snowboarding days where I don't feel as tired at the end...I have always been lean..and go 6' 150 lbs. I don't think the low percentage is all that rare amog climbers...particularly in the Boulder area..Look at Dale Goddard, and Colin Lantz...I think the most important thing is not to over-eat, get decent sleep, and slam water!

Indeed, Doug, there are lots of climbers with very low body fat %. I'm sure you're very lean and you're very fortunate, because most people have to work hard to stay at 10% or below. No healthy person, however, walks around at 4-5%, which is approaching the physiological minimum fat % for survival (males). Knowing nothing else about you, I'd guess you come in around 8%, give or take.

A totally inconsequential matter, I realize. But the subject came up so I figured I would comment, since the difference between 4.1% and 8% is huge, physiologically speaking.

Calipers are a decent tool, but only if the measurements are performed as part of a multi-site test (several skinfolds from all over the body) and by a person with lots of experience. I own a set of expensive calipers and I can pull a reading of 5% off someone who is actually 15%.

Will S wrote:So for all you "helps me carry a big pack on the approach" people: WTF is in those packs and why do you need help? I'm in terrible hiking and aerobic shape, have never been particularly strong in the legs (very mediocre mtn biker, hiker, runner, etc even when I was doing those things a lot)and a few months ago carried bivy gear, climbing gear, food for two days and 2 gallons of water up what is supposed to be one of the worst approaches in Red Rock. Seemed pretty casual to me, even with my little bird legs and being out of shape. If you're a 5.8 trad guy, just go climbing. 3-4 days a week, and cut WAY back on that other stuff. Get mileage, get to sub 10% bodyfat, and work on your mental game. You said you've climbed 50 pitches, total. I've gone to Indian Cove and free soloed 15-20 pitches in a couple hours. With that little mileage, you've got like 4 actual climbing days behind you. I'm a big proponent of physical training, but at this point mileage is what you need. IMO, of course. Excess volume (like doing 30 laps on a climb in a couple hours) is a common culprit with newer (say <3 years) climbers. Soon they have chronic inflammation/tendonosis issues and spend years trying to sort it out. Add volume very, very gradually. Use "backoff" sessions and backoff weeks (my ratio is about 3:1 for both sessions and weeks, e.g. 3 hard sessions then 1 easy one, three weeks of 3hard/1easy and one week of 3 easy/1hard..adjust to suit your ability to recover, might be 2:1 or even 1:1 in the first few years) Crossfit is...well, varied depending on where you train. Brian Abram wrote a terrific post above that I can't really improve upon. Personally, coming from a long, long background of training with free weights to supplement sports training, I think crossfit is a joke if increasing athletic performance in a specific sport is your goal. If you are just trying to increase general ability to tolerate workloads near your threshhold or be hard to kill (military, fire, cops, etc) then it seems beneficial. Otherwise, a waste of time, and in all cases, likely to end in injury. Even at 18 yo, with a pro coach, and 3+ years practicing them, I had at best mediocre technique on the Olys. Doing them for time or in a very fatigued state is a recipe for disaster...and that seems to be the case everytime I see the X-fit peeps doing Olys.

Great advice, thank you.

Okay Jason, im at this vans warped tour right and ive had a few so forgive me if im typing poorly but where do i post this pic and what do i gotta be shirtless or what? ha
Or juss a random?
Im tellin you 4% is what that machine read. But beers on me if im over 8%.

The lady was tellin me thats not very healthy... anyway ill read this thread again after this warped tour.

ChaseLeoncini wrote:Okay Jason, im at this vans warped tour right and ive had a few so forgive me if im typing poorly but where do i post this pic and what do i gotta be shirtless or what? ha Or juss a random? Im tellin you 4% is what that machine read. But beers on me if im over 8%. The lady was tellin me thats not very healthy... anyway ill read this thread again after this warped tour.

See the link I posted above when you're sober. You'll have to join the forum which will take a couple of minutes, then post a pic of yourself. If you peruse the forum you will see what needs to be done. Hurry up though, because my growler of Ballast Point Victory at Sea is almost empty and I need to replenish soon.

There's a lot of crap being thrown around here, how unusual in a forum eh, so let me address Daniel, his original post, clarifications, and anyone else also seeking similar goals.

Climbing is a very specific sport, so in general the best way to improve climbing is to climb. However, most people go about this in a sort of willy-nilly fashion, eventually establishing a routine which they have neither thought-out nor planned and plateau shortly thereafter. I think your goals will allow you to continue improving long past when others slow down.

From my understanding, you want to incorporate cross-fit style training in to your climbing regimen. It sounds like you have a basic (or better) understanding of muscle training and fitness plans. This will help a lot as you develop a personalized workout plan for climbnig.

The next step would be to go to an expert on the topic, and the cheapest and easiest way to do this is to buy a book. Numerous exist on the topic, but the one I've found most helpful myself, and which would likely address your specific goals, is called "The Self-Coached Climber" by Dan Hague. I'm sure you've gotten many other books recommended in this forum, but this one I think will help in particular. It devotes each chapter to training a different aspect of climbing (movement, aerobic, strength, etc) and gives at least a couple specific exercises to train each. Many of these exercises are modeled after interval/repitition training used in other sports but applied to climbing, like your idea of running laps at a certain difficulty. In my estimation this would give you a spring board to jump start your own climbing/cross-fit regimen.

A couple personal notes. Joshua Tree is great, climb there as much as you can, and if that's the type of climbing you enjoy there's nothing wrong with focusing on it. However, a gym and other styles of climbing will help you learn techniques and acquire strength that Joshua Tree will neglect. Fortunately for you, Joshua Tree climbing is generally exactly what gym climbing is not, so between the two you should be able to establish a pretty thorough base.

My other note is about injury. As you've already experience, tendons are sensitive and integral in rock climbing. They also take an incredibly long time to strengthen and heal, literally years compared to what muscles do in weeks/months. So first, any tendon pain should be followed by rest until it is completely gone, losing 2 weeks here is better than 2 months down the line (or much longer). Secondly, while climbing may be your focus, do not neglect your antagonist muscle groups that you luckily probably have established previously. Chest and upper forearm muscles particularly. If you let climbing dictate your exercises you will neglect these, have an uneven pull on your tendons and will invariably injure them sooner or later.

Long-winded without much specific information, but it would take a whole book to give you a portion of the information you're looking for. Have fun developing your climbing routine and pushing your boundaries.

Cheers.

Jason Kim wrote:No healthy person, however, walks around at 4-5%, which is approaching the physiological minimum fat % for survival (males). Knowing nothing else about you, I'd guess you come in around 8%, give or take. A totally inconsequential matter, I realize. But the subject came up so I figured I would comment, since the difference between 4.1% and 8% is huge, physiologically speaking. Calipers are a decent tool, but only if the measurements are performed as part of a multi-site test (several skinfolds from all over the body) and by a person with lots of experience. I own a set of expensive calipers and I can pull a reading of 5% off someone who is actually 15%.

It's funny that the last time I was involved in a big conversation in the training forum here it was a talk about body fat percentage. It's time to embarrass myself as publicly as possible.

It is not true that no healthy person walks around at 4-5%. That is a common misconception or the result of misinformation. It is also a misconception that you can guess from someone's appearance their approximate body fat percentage, regardless that link. Muscle mass makes all the difference in the world.

I've been at 4-5% before, and that is actually where I climbed my best.

Since 2009, I have had a body fat hydrostatic water submersion test at least once a year, and as part of an ongoing study at the University of South Carolina, I've had a DXA scan every 3 months over the past 21 months. I got my DXA results up to that point at the 12 month visit, but I have to wait until the 24 month visit to get my full results. Hydrostatic testing and DXA scans are the standards for accuracy that all other tests compare themselves to.

These have been posted before, but here are my hydrostatic test results over a few years:

--- Invalid image id: 107680473 ---
--- Invalid image id: 107680514 ---
--- Invalid image id: 107680523 ---

So before you scroll down, I want you to picture in your head what you expect an individual to look like with the numbers above. I'm 5'10.5".

Over 3 years, I went from around 160 to 180 pounds. At one point, I was 177 with a body fat percentage of 4.9%. But I looked like any of the photos of guys around 10-12% as long as I wasn't flexing.

Here is me kind of flexing at around the time of my 177 pound 4.9% test:
--- Invalid image id: 107679945 ---

Sorry what I'm doing is so ridiculous there, but I don't have too many topless pics.

And here I am at about 163 and 4.4%:
--- Invalid image id: 107679601 ---

Pretty damn skinny. This is the one time in my life I was flashing 5.12.

And here is 179 and 6.6% without flexing:
--- Invalid image id: 108202218 ---

That last one would be unbelievable if I didn't know any better. But I do know better. If someone is not flexing, you can't tell a damn thing about anything. BTW, that pic was me after my first big run. Until that point, I had only ever run 10 miles once ever. And that was the finish line of a 50 mile trail race. I did terrible, but I finished it before the cutoff time. And I credit it to CF, for what it's worth.

And here I am at about 172 and 6% and not flexing:
--- Invalid image id: 107679804 ---

And just for the embarrassment, here I am in about 2006, before I gave up soft drinks and started CrossFit:
--- Invalid image id: 107679588 ---

I've been all over the map over the past 7 years or so. I'm currently about 171 and remain about 6%, give or take a half percent. But if you saw me, you would probably guess I was 10-12%. But that's because no one really knows what they're talking about.

/thread