Gear Failure on West Face Leaning Tower results in whipper.
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Hi everyone, |
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Dang, man, glad you both are well. |
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" Also--Anthony found the .5 c4 and draw minus the bent gate hung up on one of his aiders by some kind of luck. It was not clipped to it--it was tangled in it and he found it after the fall when he went to set up to jug. So on the way down, we figure his aider hooked the cam and pulled it as well." |
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JLP wrote: For those who don't know what Mohr's Circle is and why the break has an angle to it, feel free to offer up other explainations on how ~1-2000 lbs of force (~open gate rating) went un-noticed by a 120 lb climber...I qualify. :-) My understanding is that breakage of gear / rock can occur which absorbs very little energy and so slows the climber down very little. In other words, the force to break something can be enough to cause failure but is quasi-independent of the actual energy absorbed from whatever applied the force. A rope that stretches to failure is a great example of absorbing a lot of energy before breakage. A quick karate chop to a stack of bricks absorbs far less energy from the hand than more slowly pressing down on the bricks until they break. |
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Caprinae monkey wrote: ... (sometimes you learn the simplified equations only to learn there are additional parts of the equation, e.g. E=mc^2 is only part of it, and the other parts "cancel" in a particular situation) often don't apply to real life where there are so many other factors involved.The force calculators are based on RG's "Standard Equation for Impact Force". If you're an engineer, you might enjoy the read! rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/fo…;postatt_id=746 But yes, there are a lot of other factors that the calculators cannot take into account. The calculator gives a simple number which may be ballpark, but could be way off. |
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I tried to bring this in upthread but it got lost in the frenzy... |
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Check out this video from Black Diamond at :50. |
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There have been a number of posts here suggesting that there is something wrong with the practice of using any sling longer than a quickdraw (aka, a "trad draw"), in that the longer slings increase the chance of gate whip. |
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Optimistic wrote:There have been a number of posts here suggesting that there is something wrong with the practice of using any sling longer than a quickdraw (aka, a "trad draw"), in that the longer slings increase the chance of gate whip. It seems to me like using a long sling to minimize drag is about as controversial at this point as using a harness or a nylon rope...ie, not at all. And if current carabiners are not adequate to deal with that eventuality, then it's the carabiners that are inadequate, not the slings. Do a lot of people here feel that there's really some solid evidence to suggest that using a 24" or 48" sling without a locking biner is an unsafe practice?gate whip can be easily minimized by using wiregates which many already are |
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Optimistic: Do a lot of people here feel that there's really some solid evidence to suggest that using a 24" or 48" sling without a locking biner is an unsafe practice? |
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Don Ferris wrote:Check out this video from Black Diamond at :50. Based on this I'd say the gate had to have been open. Also no deformation on the nose of your broken biner hints to the open gate theory.BD guy says they've never seen a closed gate failure in the real world since we can't generate forces that high so it must have been open gate failure. Sounds like case closed, time to get some wire gates... no? |
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Ill take this opportunity to inquire: why are wire gates superior for crossloading, etc? |
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Optimistic wrote:Do a lot of people here feel that there's really some solid evidence to suggest that using a 24" or 48" sling without a locking biner is an unsafe practice?Multi-pitch gear is my favorite climbing venue. I don't feel that sling extension without a locker is relatively unsafe. In that climbing venue, needing to occasionally extend a sling is a given to anyone who has led much. I can imagine once in a while putting a locker on the rope-side biner of that piece placed early on lead, or on that early bolt with decking potential ... at the same time, I don't see myself doing that as a matter of habit. I've never bought one of those bent gates. Sure, it is easier to clip the rope ... or inadvertently un-clip I guess. But aren't they also easier to wriggle off a bolt hanger? Starting to replace my non-locker solid gates with the wire gate Wild Country Heliums. The heliums have an open-gate strength of 10 kN ... a little more margin than these bent gates (and many others) and still very light. At the same time, I wouldn't use them if I were lowering a lot on my draws as they can wear to a sharp edge. And since I generally don't aid climb, I'll continue to use a tube-style device. It can't be said enough ... what a bizarre accident with so many failures. Glad Shern and Anthony are still with us! Bill L |
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The Stoned Master wrote:Ill take this opportunity to inquire: why are wire gates superior for crossloading, etc? I use strictly wire gates myself but am unsure why they are tougher than the non-wire gates?In general, they're not better for cross loading. They may better in the major axis, and may or may not be better open. Since we've been talking about Mammut: the Mammut Classic keylock and the wire keylock have the same gate open and miner axis rating, but the major axis is 1kN more for the wire gate. The Moses wire and the Element (solid) keylock are the same in each rating (23-8-8). The Bionic wire is stronger in the major axis, but the same open and weaker x-loaded than the solid gate. The wires are (supposedly) less prone to gate flutter, so they may be more likely to stay closed than an equivalent solid gate. |
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Bill Lawry wrote: .. I've never bought one of those bent gates. Sure, it is easier to clip the rope ... or inadvertently un-clip I guess. But aren't they also easier to wriggle off a bolt hanger? ...Why would you ever put a bent gate on a bolt hanger? |
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Thanks csproul! Good, clear explanation. Thanks man. |
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Csproul, the trick I've seen for showing wire gates have less gate flutter is this... |
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The Stoned Master wrote:Optimistic: Do a lot of people here feel that there's really some solid evidence to suggest that using a 24" or 48" sling without a locking biner is an unsafe practice? I feel safe using a non-locking biner, no way am I dragging that many lockers. My experience tells me 99.99% of the time this is/will be adequate at least; I can't predict the future and the potential for something to malfunction/go wrong is always there. To each his own though: safety is relative. Example: I tend to feel super comfortable using 2 bomber (solid rock + solid placement) pieces as an anchor. Many people would feel unsafe even though I feel safe.It nice to see a bit of real world logic and calm thinking here. |
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csproul wrote: Why would you ever put a bent gate on a bolt hanger?Good idea to clearly make that point here. |
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Before the draws were extended, were they tripled or doubled to shorten them? Tripled ones extend cleanly; doubled ones extend with a loop around the spine of one of the biners. Loading them with the wrap seems like a bad idea. |