2:1 Haul Setup - Rate my rigging

Thanks Mark! I've read over you website a few times now. Great job. Between you, PTPP, and Chris Mac I've gotten so much info and can't wait to get on a big wall in Yosemite this spring.

Do you have any recommendations on where in Yosemite I could practice my whole routine(hauling, setting up portaledge, rapping) that I can aid up a few pitches and bivy the night without getting in the way of people trying to summit?

Thanks.

Probably the start of the Dihedral Wall or the NA. Aiding up P1 of Negative Pinnacle would be cool also.

I'm about ready to write up a Tips Sheet of how to assemble a portaledge also. I should have that one ready to go soon.

Cheers,

Ryan,
I prefer a keylock style carabiner for my aid ladders. I currently use petzl spirits. My gf always uses lockers on her ladders so everyone has their own choice.

Regarding lockers on your haul setup:
I prefer petzl ok triact carabiners. They would take a great deal to open unexpectedly and the oval shape keeps them in proper orientation without much chance of cross loading.

My personal thought here is that any lockers other than screw locks are a good idea. If I'm really tired then the auto lockers keep me safe as you cannot forget to lock an auto locker.

That being said, a screw locker is simple and ambidextrous. For my canyoneering (rappelling in waterfalls) I always use screw lockers as auto lockers are hard to deal with when unclipping from a rope while floating in water.

Summary: Use any locker you got. It's a personal preference.

Here's the setup-

Setup

Gear-
Mini Traxion
Camp/Petzl pulley
Petzl Croll
Petzl William ball lockers

Rate my setup please. Red cord is Z cord, Blue is haul line(redirected for clarity)

-seems most people on this thread are attaching their haul setup to bolt via a sling or draw. Why is that necessary? The way I've got it seems to be working great and in line. Also the closer your setup is to anchor, the more you can haul before resetting.

-Do you haul on your master, or on the side bolt. Seems like it would be easier/safer if second was jugging on master alone?

Tips are MUCH appreciated.

sling/draw allows it to spin as it needs

i usually haul from the highest bolt available, and (honestly) sometimes back it up...

Ahhhh. The spinning aspect. That makes sense.

yeah, just run a doubled loop of 8 mil cord through the top pulley. it should be ~4 inches long, gives it a smidgen of rotatability.

Wow, you guys really "get" how to make this thing nowadays.

Yes, you MUST have a sling or cord or something through the pulley on top of the zed-cord. It allows that extra "degree of freedom" for the system to work. You can credit Chongo with invention, especially the sling.

I use a doubled piece of supertape, because it sits flat against the top of the pulley. The problem with a piece of 8mm perlon or old hunk of climbing rope is that it is circular in cross section, and hits the metal of the pulley tangentially, amplifying the force on sheath of the cord. The flat tape spreads the force more evenly, is quick and easy to tie, and is more reliable and more easily fixed in the field.

Keep and eye on the zed-cord, too - it will become abraded in the working zone. A couple of times while hauling - and much to my fear and amazement - the zed-cord snapped with a rather percussive and explosive sound! Scared the bejeepers out of me.

This is the reason I no longer use the 5.5mm Spectra on the zed cord. Even though it does not stretch, it is quite stiff and it abrades very easily. In other words, it snaps. Plus it's very expensive. I just use an old hunk of 7mm big wall cordelette. Yes, there is a small amount of stretch, but not much in 7mm. 6mm is just a bit too thing, and 8mm is just a bit too thick. Those things will all work, but you really need to take it from me that 7mm is the way to go.

"Tried and tested over millions of foot-pounds of piggage."

Ryan, That rig looks great.

You MIGHT get a little bit of efficiency loss when the weigh comes tight on the Mini track and it pushes the pulley aside and when you apply weight to the Zed cord and that top pulley pushed the Mini track aside. It won't be a whole hell of a lot and you could easily eliminate it by clipping the Mini into your main biner, with a short sling or adding another biner so it hangs a bit lower.

Keenan, that's exactly what I do.

Still though, you're set.

Now get out and PRACTICE with it a bit.

Some of these rigs are not likely to be much better than 1:1 with a good pulley, here's why...

Small non-ball bearing pulleys are about ~70% efficient.

The top pulley is a simple 1:1 re-direct from pulling up, so its efficiency is directly applied to everything. F_1to1=Efficiency * Pull

The bottom pulley is part of a 2:1, where the force lifting force will be F_2to1= F_1to1 + Efficiency * F_1to1

So for 70% efficiency pulleys:

F_2to1=0.7*Pull + 0.7*0.7*Pull = 1.29*Pull

Only a 1.29:1 mechanical advantage and only a 65% overall efficiency (1/3 of your effort ends up wasted in warming up the pulleys)

For 90% efficient pulleys (ball bearing models are around 90-95% or so):

F_2to1=0.9*Pull + 0.9*0.9*Pull = 1.71*Pull

Overall this 85% efficient, and you can either lift 1/3 more weight for the same effort using good pulleys, or lift the same weight with 25% less effort depending on how you look at it.

Moreover, if you are worried about weight, the top pulley efficiency is twice as important, so put your good pulley up high in the 1:1 re-direct location.

Have you considered using a couple of DMM Revolvers in place of the two pulleys (blue) you are using on the zed-cord? You would lose the weight of those two pulley's that have a single purpose. Revolvers replace the two biners that secure those pulleys and also can serve as full strength biners too.

Also, do you plan to carry three acenders? You should need two to jug the rope, and one for your 2:1 haul system. I would substitue a prusik for that blue handle. Seeing that it gets adjusted for the height of the anchor and should remain fixed to that single point for the duration of the haul. Prusiks don't weigh anything compared to that handle... plus they pack down to almost nothing.

DMM Revolvers are not efficient pulleys. They are meant to be used for rope drag.

randy88fj62 wrote:DMM Revolvers are not efficient pulleys. They are meant to be used for rope drag.

this.

and the ascender issue. either use the ones you jug with (if you are bringing 4 between the two of you) or just bring 3 total and dedicate one to the haul system.

Craig Childre wrote:Have you considered using a couple of DMM Revolvers in place of the two pulleys (blue) you are using on the zed-cord? You would lose the weight of those two pulley's that have a single purpose. Revolvers replace the two biners that secure those pulleys and also can serve as full strength biners too. Also, do you plan to carry three acenders? You should need two to jug the rope, and one for your 2:1 haul system. I would substitue a prusik for that blue handle. Seeing that it gets adjusted for the height of the anchor and should remain fixed to that single point for the duration of the haul. Prusiks don't weigh anything compared to that handle... plus they pack down to almost nothing.

Sounds a little like big wall theory to me.

csproul wrote: Sounds a little like big wall theory to me.

classic armchair MP advice

Craig Childre wrote:I would substitue a prusik for that blue handle. Seeing that it gets adjusted for the height of the anchor and should remain fixed to that single point for the duration of the haul. Prusiks don't weigh anything compared to that handle... plus they pack down to almost nothing.

What about using a clove hitch?

Only a matter of time before this thread went down...

Now, now ...

I read moof's post, and I actually quoted it and then wrote "Bollocks", at least until I read the rest of it, which is pretty good. It's hard to believe that a pulley would have such a low-efficiency, but maybe.

Here's what I can tell you, tried and tested, and is KNOTT Big Wall Theory*:

- the physical orientation of the 2:1 rig is FAR more important than the efficiency of the pulleys. In other words, exactly how everything fits together. For instance, there are four possible ways that the zed-cord can be oriented, and only one is correct. You have to practise, as Mark suggests, to find out which is right. Then you have to fine tune this thing to an RCH, make sure all the lengths are correct, where you attach the zed cord to you, and so on. Once you "get it", it's pretty easy. But you DO have to pay your dues to figure it out

- put your good pulley on top, as moof suggests. If I wasn't on my second glass of wine [Eastern Daylight Savings Time] I would post up a pair of photos I have. I put a pulley on top, and a carabiner on the bottom, and was able to still haul. But if you put the crab on top and the pulley on the bottom, you can't even move it.

- you need real pulleys, not DMM Revolvers. The Revolver is, however, a superb device to have in your arsenal, as it has a number of superb uses on the big wall, none of which I am prepared to share at this stage in the bottle.

Petzl Fixe pulley is listed at 71% efficiency.

Well, I'll be buggered. I did knott know that the Fixe Pulley had such a crappy efficiency. Thanks for the tip, eh?

From another great post here on Mountain Project:

I've already got me one of those sweet #9 pulleys which you see in the photo above. It has great bearings, and being my "better" pulley I therefore use it on the top of my 2:1 rig. I'm very happy with it, and here's the proof:



So now I'm going to buy me one of these Petzl Mini Prusik Minding Pulleys with 91% efficiency. That's a huge improvement in efficiency:



I'll replace my ancient 71% Fixe Pulley which I use on my inverted ascender on the bottom of my 2:1, and which I've been using since 1997:



And the new Mini Prusik Minding Pulley is actually 10g lighter in weight than Fixe.

So how much will this improve my hauling? It's going to hurt my wallet to the tune of about fifty bucks.