Onsight vs Redpoint Ability

Interesting comments. I have been thinking of projecting some harder (for me anyways) routes, but I think what is more appealing is to work on my onsighting and route finding/problem solving. Seems much more practical and useful all around.

ROC wrote:work on my onsighting and route finding/problem solving.

interesting though that redpointing harder routes, improves your onsightability on others, bc of the skill/knowledge you gain. more tools for the toolbox...

The majority of what i have done this season is projecting/redpointing. On other routes that i don't want to 'work' i have noticed that i am getting more & more onsights w/out even thinking about it. Redpointing for sure will help you out in the long run overall.

Good feedback. Damn, climbing just gets better and better! Can't wait to get back out there.

About a number grade is the average for routes, I think. That's my gap for sport routes. I haven't really worked any trad routes, but I plan to this season so I'll get back to you on that.

Any thoughts from you guys on boulder flash vs. redpoint grade? I know one climber who has redpointed a boulder problem 4 V-grades harder than her best flash. Meanwhile, my best flash and redpoint grades are the same, on plastic and rock. WTF?

Like many others who've posted, my onsight vs redpoint ability is about one grade.

I wonder, though, if that is consistent as climbing ability goes further up the scale. It's probably because I don't climb 13, but to me, the difference between 13a and 14a is far greater than the difference between 10c/d and 11c/d.

Darren Mabe wrote: for folks that say they onsight and redpoint at the same grade, i say they aren't trying hard enough routes.

Or maybe we get bored doing the same thing twice...

Tony B wrote: Or maybe we get bored doing the same thing twice...

touche

Simon Thompson wrote: Still makes it a pink-point. A pink-point is a soft red-point.

Grace us with Your Infinite Wisdom, O Lord of the Gunks single digit testpieces!

Oh, and the general rule of thumb has been that your onsight limit is about one letter grade below your redpoint limit. In my experience, this has been roughly the case, whether in sport of trad. This is assuming that "onsight" is your consistent onsight level (as in, of all the 12a's you've tried in the past year, you've onsighted more than half of them), rather than "best onsight you've ever done," and that "redpoint" means "something you can get with a few day's work," rather than some multi-year project.

Tony B wrote: Or maybe we get bored doing the same thing twice...

If you think projecting is doing the same thing twice... you're doing it wrong! :)

Seriously, though - why is projecting so misunderstood? Some people love to redpoint - check out Joey Kinder's all-red 8a

My personal span is 11a-13b. Yes, that's over 2 number grades. I've done a couple 11d's 2nd go after nearly making the onsight. I've also done a 12b 2nd go after being nowhere close on the onsight. A big factor in your hardest onsight is ...how much time you spend onsighting.

As a weekend warrior with limited time on rock, I prefer to spend my time on sends that will be deeply meaningful and push my physical and mental limit - for me that means redpointing.

It confuses me when people say that redpointing isn't a good measure of your true climbing ability (or that if it takes more than X attempts, it's not a measure of your true climbing ability). Redpoint climbing is a game that people play. For some of us, it IS climbing.

Also, it tickles me that the whole pinkpointing thing is still resurfacing in threads like this. Yeah, we know, you're morally superior to Sharma and Ondra because you place your own draws. You are also an ethical dinosaur. Sport climbing has moved on.

Rajiv Ayyangar wrote: If you think projecting is doing the same thing twice... you're doing it wrong! :) Seriously, though - why is projecting so misunderstood?

OK... 'doing the same thing for weeks.' ... Better?
In all seriousness, I've redpointed a climb or two in my life, but I'd generally rather go do something I have not tried.
There was an article in one of the mags a few years back that had a correlation of bouldering to redpoint and onsight to redpoint ability in it. Maybe someone will recall that and post it.

All aspects of climbing is/can be hard & challenging. It all comes down to what spurs you on to keep getting better at whatever you do. When i onsight something, i feel great. It is a wonderful feeling. But oppossite that, when i find a line that is beautiful & intriguing to me that just shuts me down cold, & i put all the effort that i have within me to get it, to redpoint it, i feel like i am 'on the top of the world'. Dedication & hard work feels like a cleansing. That's just me though, i guess. I do believe you will become a better climber if you work the redpoints more. If for nothing else, it makes you constantly reevaluate what you, your body, & mind are doing. It forces you to look at ALL the mistakes you are/always making.

Tangentially related question: If your main goals are long 5.11 and 5.12 free routes, is it more beneficial to spend time onsighting or projecting at the crag? I tend to do about an equal mix of both, but can get sucked in to the "project" mentality (though I've probably never put in more than about 8 attempts over a couple of weeks on any single pitch).

Nick Stayner wrote:Tangentially related question: If your main goals are long 5.11 and 5.12 free routes, is it more beneficial to spend time onsighting or projecting at the crag? I tend to do about an equal mix of both, but can get sucked in to the "project" mentality (though I've probably never put in more than about 8 attempts over a couple of weeks on any single pitch).

Assuming that you can onsight at those levels, my experience regarding longer routes is that they require more endurance at the grade. Not necessarily ARCing type endurance, but the ability to send numerous pitches at those grades in a day. Laps on similar grades (to the objective route) at the sport crag work well for me. Projecting can get you strong, but not fit for an all day affair. Would projecting a sport 13a get you ready for say...Astroman? Unlikely. Assuming your crack skills are up to snuff, laps on 5.11 and 5.12 would be a better bet.

Where pinkpoint becomes quite a relevant distinction is with gear climbs.

+1 with zenotopia and the feeling of redpointing at your limit. For me, it doesn't get much better than that feeling.

JMo wrote:Where pinkpoint becomes quite a relevant distinction is with gear climbs.

Agreed. "Redpoint" in modern parlance means proper redpointing for gear routes, and pinkpointing for sport routes. Occasionally someone will send a hard gear route on pinkpoint - but it's pretty rare since the goal is always to redpoint.

Similarly, once in a while someone (cough, Ondra) will place draws on a ridiculously hard send, usually because they are onsighting. This is noted as adding extra difficulty, but it's on-par with, say, sending in 90-degree heat, or sending when the route is wet. Commendable, but not something people seek out intentionally.

"This is such an informative thread! These hot topics have never been discussed before. "

What a turn of events! Someone complaining! That's never happened here before. Show me one thread that has 'never' been discussed before. Goodnes...

the two types of climbing really help each other. red pointing harder stuff allows you to learn things that you can apply in onsight situations. also, you build more confidence and smoothness at moves that are just below the redpoint level and/or around the onsight level.

onsighting gives you the opportunity to learn more of a broad array of skills, which then can be used to figure out harder redpoint sequences. it also tends to help your endurance as you usually spend more time on a route when you are onsighting.

for quite a while i have been mostly onsighting, or redpointing in 2 or 3 tries. one of the best pieces of advice that i ever read (either mike or mark anderson) was that if you fail on a route, try to immediately get back on it and send it - don't just walk away from it. at this point, my onsight grades (trad and sport) are about 2 letters under my redpoint grades. i am going to start looking for some harder projects and see where it takes me.

said it before and will say it again..
from arnold: onsighting is thinking, redpointing is remembering.