personal "anchor chain" for Equalizing anchor?

I've used both the Sterling Chain Reactor and Metolius PAS as a personal "leash" for connecting to an anchor while setting up rappel or top-rope -- some people like to call these "anchor chains". But now I'm seeing some manufacturers claiming that I could also use it in constructing a 2-point
equalizing anchor (like for multi-pitch leads or top-roping).

Anybody tried this?

Seems like if you just let it hang down in a V shape between two anchor protection points, and clip it into the lowest-hanging loop as a "masterpoint", you (often) get some kind of equalization, since the clipping carabiner can slide from side to side within that single loop.

Extension is limited, since if one of the two anchor points fails, the carabiner only slips as far as the end of its single loop.

Are there any special risks for me incorporating this into constructing an anchor?
(presumably also with a separate connection to at least least one more protection point for further redundancy)?

Special situations where incorporating an "anchor chain" might be inadvisable? (or especially useful?)

Whst to do if the lowest point on the V is at the intersection of two loops? so the obvious clip down not offer any equializing sliding?
- (leaving aside the issue of whether true dynamic Equalization actually matters in 99.99% of multi-pitch trad anchor situations).

I'm thinking that since I carry a Stirling Chain Reactor with me anyway when I climb - so why not get some additional use from it (and maybe skip carrying the extra weight of a cordelette for situations where I'm leading multiple pitches in succession instead of trading leads).

Ken

I do it with bolts, sometimes I'll use it for a quick seconding rig for ice, but haven't done it with trad gear. Usually rope or cord.

They sell 2 different products.

PAS - metoliusclimbing.com/pas_pe…

Anchor Chain - metoliusclimbing.com/anchor…

Yes, and they claim that both products could be useful for making Equalizing anchors.
So do you experience or ideas for doing that with either one?

Tristan B wrote:They sell 2 different products. PAS - metoliusclimbing.com/pas_pe… Anchor Chain - metoliusclimbing.com/anchor…

Stirling Chain Reactor also comes in a Pro version, with the long loop on one end as a double sling. So while we're touching on multiple product models ...
When I use my usual non-Pro Stirling as a personal "leash" for connecting to the anchor to set up a rappel/abseil, I have that long end connected by a girth-hitch to my harness. Doens't seem like having a double-strand helps for that. So ...

Any ideas on that second strand of the big end loop might be useful for?

Ken

Nope, I don't own either. But those both pretty expensive. Just use draws or slings. I have a long draw with a locker on each side that I use for TR's and then just a normal draw on the other bolt.

As Metolious say, they are for equalising anchors NOT dynamically equalising. They will never provide any dynamic equalisation unless you clip them tight between the two anchor points.
An expensive, heavy, awkward to carry way to do a simple job without the versatility of a couple of cheap slings.

If you were to clip only one of the loops, then your system wouldn't be redundant (loop cuts and you're done). While I realize this is highly unlikely, I thought I should point it out.

The thing I don't like about it is you're clipped to one loop so there's no redundancy. I guess you could clip 2 separate loops but I think that would get cluttered/tangled quick. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how it's used.

I'm not an expert on anchors, but I thought the usual concern for redundancy was that one of the protection points might fail.
I guess that concern is because I don't have full control over those points. If it's a trad anchor, then I'm always sort of "making do" with whatever rock features I happen to find around my chose anchor location. If it's a bolt anchor, then I don't know the history of each bolt and I can't look "inside" the rock to verify the connection of the threads.

But with pieces of gear I brought along myself, I do know the history of each single piece, and to some extent I can visually verify its current fitness (e.g. check nylon for fraying, carabiner metal for fatigue cracks).

So for myself personally, I trust my life to a single piece of my own well-chosen well-cared-for gear all the time. Like every time I rappel I trust my life to a single loop of nylon fibers (my belay loop) and a single piece of metal (locking carabiner).

So from my perspective, how is trusting a single (well-selected) nylon loop of my Sterling Chain reactor when constructing a belay anchor so different from my trusting a single nylon loop when rappeling?

Ken

I have a question about attaching yourself to an anchor- I never even knew these Personal Anchor Systems existed until recently, but the way I have always connected myself to anchors has been by two dyneema slings either girth hitched or threaded (depending on how much length I need) through both belay loops and connected to the anchor with non locking carabiners. Is this unsafe?

Kyle Kimball wrote:I have a question about attaching yourself to an anchor- I never even knew these Personal Anchor Systems existed until recently, but the way I have always connected myself to anchors has been by two dyneema slings either girth hitched or threaded (depending on how much length I need) through both belay loops and connected to the anchor with non locking carabiners. Is this unsafe?

No, not at all unsafe. Though I would probably use lockers for anything other than cleaning sport anchors.

When setting up a top rope on two bolts I prefer to use cord or rope as it has a sheath that was designed for abrasion resistance. The webbing found on the sterling chain reactor and other personal anchor systems "PAS" do not have a sheath. Pony up the extra few bucks and get some cord or rope.

My ideal setup is a pre-rigged quad for sport climbing.

For longer top rope setups where the anchors are natural or not close together I prefer to use 11mm static rope.

Never have an anchor rely on one loop of webbing. That's asking for trouble. Always have redundancy in your anchor setups!

It kind of seems like reinventing the wheel.

For most sport anchors I tie in with the rope (to always stay on belay) and just to make myself happy I'll probably also initially clip in with a sling and locker.

I have a PAS and I use it from time to time as it's nice to make the quick length adjustments, but really I barely use it.

IMO I'd rather bring something for an anchor that I can use for other things: Cordelette, double length runner with 3 lockers, quick draws or I have two QD's set up with 4 small lockers. That last one is probably what I use on single pitch anchors the most when its an up and down shot.

I honestly can't remember the last time I even brought my PAS out.

Oh and just a thought, instead of two slings to tie in IMO always use the rope as one tie in point. That way you NEVER drop the rope. haha it would SUCK being safely tied into anchors with no rope.

Scott McMahon wrote:Oh and just a thought, instead of two slings to tie in IMO always use the rope as one tie in point. That way you NEVER drop the rope. haha it would SUCK being safely tied into anchors with no rope.

That makes no sense.... Are you talking about doing multi pitch sport climbs or cleaning the anchor?

Say I do tie in with 2 slings, how on earth am I possibly going to drop the rope if it is still tied to my harness???? Or if you are talking about cleaning the pitch how do you anchor yourself with the rope and still manage to thread the chains and set it up for rappel? Also, are you high?

Scott McMahon wrote:It kind of seems like reinventing the wheel. For most sport anchors I tie in with the rope (to always stay on belay) and just to make myself happy I'll probably also initially clip in with a sling and locker. I have a PAS and I use it from time to time as it's nice to make the quick length adjustments, but really I barely use it. IMO I'd rather bring something for an anchor that I can use for other things: Cordelette, double length runner with 3 lockers, quick draws or I have two QD's set up with 4 small lockers. That last one is probably what I use on single pitch anchors the most when its an up and down shot. I honestly can't remember the last time I even brought my PAS out. Oh and just a thought, instead of two slings to tie in IMO always use the rope as one tie in point. That way you NEVER drop the rope. haha it would SUCK being safely tied into anchors with no rope.

The PAS concent was designed and implemented to get novice climbers away from improperly using daisy chains. This marketing has worked well. It also allows climbers to easily extend their rappel devices making room for a back up prusik tied to the leg loop that won't get near the rappel device.

DexterRutecki wrote: That makes no sense.... Are you talking about doing multi pitch sport climbs or cleaning the anchor? Say I do tie in with 2 slings, how on earth am I possibly going to drop the rope if it is still tied to my harness???? Or if you are talking about cleaning the pitch how do you anchor yourself with the rope and still manage to thread the chains and set it up for rappel? Also, are you high?

Specifically cleaning anchors, when you thread the anchors. It's a little hard to verbally explain so if anyone wants to correct me jump in. When I first get the top I tie in with my girth hitched sling and locker. Next I'll pull up a length of rope (enough to thread 4ft or so) and tie a eight in a bight, run the rope through one of the anchor biners, and attach the bight eight to my belay loop via locker. Now I'm tied in with a sling and the rope. Now I can undo the eight on my harness and thread that extra 4 or so feet through the anchor and retie in to my harness. Once I've tied back in, I can unclip the bight and undo the backup eight. I keep tension on my sling and have the belayer take up the extra 4 feet of slack in the rope. Finish taking down the anchor, weight the rope and give it a test, unclip the girthed sling and lower.

This way you are always tied into the rope, always on belay and can't drop the rope.

Hope that makes sense. It might sound complex in writting, but it's actually quick and easy.

As far a multi-pitch, I'll have a girthed sling on my harness, but I typically tie in with a clove hitch on the rope. Quick to tie (even one handed), easily adjustable and dynamic.

And no...not high. It's early at work and I'm tired, but apparently rambling enough for you to think I'm stoned. It's actually a pretty common and safe technique. ESPECIALLY when your'e wicked high.

randy88fj62 wrote: The PAS concent was designed and implemented to get novice climbers away from improperly using daisy chains. This marketing has worked well. It also allows climbers to easily extend their rappel devices making room for a back up prusik tied to the leg loop that won't get near the rappel device.

That makes sense.

I have a PAS that I use to anchor in when cleaning single pitch sport climbs. Looking back, a single sling would do the trick but I bought a PAS early in my climbing career and figure I might as well use it.

I wouldn't seek it out for anchor building. If its all you have on your rack, seems like it would work. I usually use two draws or a double length sling for sport anchors. I do tend to favor dynamic equalization for trad anchors, but not for bolts... go figure.

kenr wrote:I'm not an expert on anchors, but I thought the usual concern for redundancy was that one of the protection points might fail. I guess that concern is because I don't have full control over those points. If it's a trad anchor, then I'm always sort of "making do" with whatever rock features I happen to find around my chose anchor location. If it's a bolt anchor, then I don't know the history of each bolt and I can't look "inside" the rock to verify the connection of the threads. But with pieces of gear I brought along myself, I do know the history of each single piece, and to some extent I can visually verify its current fitness (e.g. check nylon for fraying, carabiner metal for fatigue cracks). So for myself personally, I trust my life to a single piece of my own well-chosen well-cared-for gear all the time. Like every time I rappel I trust my life to a single loop of nylon fibers (my belay loop) and a single piece of metal (locking carabiner). So from my perspective, how is trusting a single (well-selected) nylon loop of my Sterling Chain reactor when constructing a belay anchor so different from my trusting a single nylon loop when rappeling? Ken

You make a good point about the comparison with a belay loop, I think the difference is that I can continually inspect/protect my belay loop and rap device (also belay loops are actually two loops of webbing sewn together, have a look, you should see two layers). When that anchor is up there, and I'm top roping on it, it's usually either hard or impossible to see. A little abrasion on some sharp rock could potentially cut that loop.

Redundancy, from what I've been taught and learned from experience, applies to all parts of the anchor. The success of your anchor shouldn't depend on any single piece of equipment. You use 2 bolts so that you have a back up in case one fails, it still holds, and that continues to the power point.

For example, if you have 2 bolts and use two quick draws to clip your rope in, any single part of that anchor can fail and you might not even notice it from the ground.

I see people top roping on one bolt, or one locker and they are usually fine, but I need a higher margin of safety.

Scott McMahon wrote: Specifically cleaning anchors, when you thread the anchors. It's a little hard to verbally explain so if anyone wants to correct me jump in. When I first get the top I tie in with my girth hitched sling and locker. Next I'll pull up a length of rope (enough to thread 4ft or so) and tie a eight in a bight, run the rope through one of the anchor biners, and attach the bight eight to my belay loop via locker. Now I'm tied in with a sling and the rope. Now I can undo the eight on my harness and thread that extra 4 or so feet through the anchor and retie in to my harness. Once I've tied back in, I can unclip the bight and undo the backup eight. I keep tension on my sling and have the belayer take up the extra 4 feet of slack in the rope. Finish taking down the anchor, weight the rope and give it a test, unclip the girthed sling and lower. This way you are always tied into the rope, always on belay and can't drop the rope. Hope that makes sense. It might sound complex in writting, but it's actually quick and easy. As far a multi-pitch, I'll have a girthed sling on my harness, but I typically tie in with a clove hitch on the rope. Quick to tie (even one handed), easily adjustable and dynamic. And no...not high. It's early at work and I'm tired, but apparently rambling enough for you to think I'm stoned. It's actually a pretty common and safe technique. ESPECIALLY when your'e wicked high.

riiiight I know all of the above. But you do realize its generally considered bad form to lower off sport climbs? In places like the Red River Gorge its pretty common because the climbs are so steep they are a real pain in the ass to clean on rappel. But how many climbs are there like that in Boulder? Generally its better to rappel, so my question was how do you always stay tied in to do that?