rope drag is a drag

What Elena "will be" Jose means is bringing a cam(s) up with you as you ascend.

A.K.A. Shuffling

Usually done with two cams. May be called "euro-ing" also.

Dangerous thing is if one or both blow there is a BIG fall potential as your next piece is WAAAAAY down there.

"Walking cam" generally refers to a cam creeping backwards into a crack from up and down rope movement. Sling length can help prevent/minimize this.

Richard Fernandez wrote:What Elena "will be" Jose means is bringing a cam(s) up with you as you ascend. A.K.A. Shuffling Usually done with two cams. May be called "euro-ing" also. Dangerous thing is if one or both blow there is a BIG fall potential as your next piece is WAAAAAY down there. "Walking cam" generally refers to a cam creeping backwards into a crack from up and down rope movement. Sling length can help prevent/minimize this.

Everybody knows that! Except for sportsters of course. OK OK I climb sport too. But anyway walking cams is very convenient and can be very safe as long as you realize the importance of placing a "Leaver" every 20 ft or so. The longest I walked cams was 15 ft so far I think. It was two yellows.

Elena Sera Jose wrote: Sport climbers need not reply

ummmmm....actually, i first learned to climb on gear.
I just seriously never heard that term before, other than when describing a cam "Walking Out, or In" when you climb past it...usually WITHOUT a draw of somekind attached to it.

Thanks for the jab at sport climbing though....that was TOTALLY necessary! :-\ (rolls eyes...)

I carry slings over the shoulder with one biner clipped to each one. I use these when extending cams that already have a racking biner. I find this helps me avoids the hassle of deploying an alpine draw, and makes it easier for me to carry enough runners to extend every placement (if necessary) without crowding my gear loops too badly. You also save the weight of one extra biner, and distribute the weight more evenly around your body. Downside is they can be tough to deploy from some stances... but then again, so can alpine draws.

I follow the rule that if there is not a straight and obstacle-free line between the piece I just placed, my last piece, and the spot I anticipate putting my next piece, extend. If followed rigidly, this gets me home with minimal drag most of the time.

+1 on not placing gear under roofs or above ledges. If you absolutely must, use a double-length runner.

I've always gone by a simple mantra that was first yelled at me after some horrendous rope drag leading.... " when in doubt, run it out". Ok now in all seriousness rope drag sucks. For myself before leading I spend some time looking at the pitch from the ground, trying to gain a mental picture of not only where I will be climbing but also what the rope will look like once I'm done climbing and at the top of the pitch. Maybe this is just me but I'll typically place gear farther and farther apart as I climb higher and higher.
I know the feeling of extending a piece at my waist only to feel sketched out as soon as the carabiner slides down the rope to my feet but that's just part of leading. I've even heard of placing gear above your waist referred to as "chicken clipping". Now let's get one thing straight. I'm a chicken clipping mofo but I have taken the idea behind the phrase to heart. As a lead climber, one is supposed to trust in their abilities first, the gear below you keeps you from decking thus providing safety in the instance that your hands and feet fail you. Set it, extend it, and forget it. Time to keep climbing. Also 12 shoulder length runners should make any pitch in the world pretty drag free. IM not knocking ya I'm just saying.

One other thing to consider is that rope drag usually occurs at the end of a pitch, when you are likely to be out of sight from your belayer. Not only does rope drag make it harder for you to progress, but it also makes it more difficult for your belayer to feel your movement in the rope. If your belayer is not very experienced, or just not paying perfect attention, they may not pay out slack as quickly as you like. They may not even realize they're doing it. If this happens it can turn crappy but manageable rope drag into an unwanted game of tug-o-war that greatly increases the effects of the rope drag.

If I'm about to lead a long pitch where I suspect rope drag may be an issue, I sometimes ask my partner to belay with a bit of extra slack toward the end of the pitch when I'm out of sight. This, plus thinking your protection scheme out per the previous comments, usually mitigates any serious rope drag.

Stay on route and extend. When I first started leading trad I was all over the place. I had one really bad experiece with rope drag and since have taken all steps to aviod it.

Elena Sera Jose wrote:So I've used tricks like walking cams instead of frequent placing. I also back clean and back extend pieces finding clipping into extended piece right away may be sketchy so I clip into the cam biner then go back and extend the piece from higher stance. It seems like a lot if work and im not sure if anybody else does it.

Everybody else does it. Walking and back-cleaning, like you're doing, is part of the essential bag-o-tricks every trad leader may one day employ. Keep doing it and keep trying all the other techniques mentioned. Don't forget you can link together over-the-shoulder runners in placements where that much extension would be prudent. Always consider direction of pull and protect the second!

My partner led a long, wandering pitch the other evening, leading the rope through two rope-swallowing cracks. Near the top, he was jerking on the rope to escape the nasty drag he'd created. Now, we're regular partners and we have a sophisticated and predetermined method of rope-tug communication on route, out of sight, sound; no problem. But I thought to myself at the time, this might be a dangerous situation if somebody else was belaying him and misread these sharp tugs for: one, two, three: off-be-lay.

I used to have horrible experiences with drag when I was starting out on trad. It is definitely getting better now that I'm more comfortable running it out and not sewing climbs up as much. I think the best technique is to look at the pitch and visualize the rope running in as strait a line as possible between belays, then while climbing use slings and place protection in such a way as to run the rope along this line. Just remember every time the direction of the rope changes through a biner or over a lip friction is introduced into the system.

Sorden wrote: Everybody else does it. Walking and back-cleaning, like you're doing, is part of the essential bag-o-tricks every trad leader may one day employ. Keep doing it and keep trying all the other techniques mentioned. Don't forget you can link together over-the-shoulder runners in placements where that much extension would be prudent. Always consider direction of pull and protect the second! My partner led a long, wandering pitch the other evening, leading the rope through two rope-swallowing cracks. Near the top, he was jerking on the rope to escape the nasty drag he'd created. Now, we're regular partners and we have a sophisticated and predetermined method of rope-tug communication on route, out of sight, sound; no problem. ButI thought to myself at the time, this might be a dangerous situation if somebody else was belaying him and misread these sharp tugs for: one, two, three: off-be-lay.

Same exact situation on the owl rock at the arches with me leading, the drag, and the wind picking up the remainder of free hanging ropes. I was tugging three times and my partner thought I was off. I thought we should do three close tugs in a row but when I pull for slack not to pull so frequent in a row or something.... that may complicate things.

Andrew Haag wrote: Dont use a rope.

Boulderers need not reply either please

This might ruin your thread, and I might get the chair for saying it but here she goes... In cracks that are vertical then bend to a smaller angle (if that made sense) try to put a hex leangthwise right before the bend the rope will slide on the hex and not go into the crack and give you rope drag hell. I only carry 7,8,9,10 hex but about 50-60% I can manage to pull this off although i dont climb a ton of cracks.

EDIT: I suppose a big bro would do the same thing anyone got info on that?

rope solo

Elena Sera Jose wrote: owl rock at the arches

If you managed to create rope drag on a 100' pitch of pretty much straight in crack while using runners, the usual bag-o-tricks might not be sufficient...

I agree that the wind can be heinous, especially on slabs. It gets about as bad a getting short-roped sometimes.

Don't buy a 70m rope. At least you are not carrying around 10m of extra rope.

Elena Sera Jose wrote: ...I was tugging three times and my partner thought I was off...

If your belayer is feeling you tug multiple times, rope drag isn't your problem, your belayer is.

Edit to add: And, you're probably placing gear too far above your head. You shouldn't need to pull up that much rope, especially if you're extending draws.

Boissal wrote: If you managed to create rope drag on a 100' pitch of pretty much straight in crack while using runners, the usual bag-o-tricks might not be sufficient... I agree that the wind can be heinous, especially on slabs. It gets about as bad a getting short-roped sometimes.

Go do the owl "cracks" then u tell me! Im not talking about straight line cracks here like 30 sec over potash (lead no draws) or chocolate corner (did not lead that one yet) yeah it depends on how straight and how shallow or deep the line of protection is on the route. Hexes? No thank you. On serious note : I like the rule if three when u look down where u placed and ahead to where the next potential placement would be and create a straight line. Anyway all good thoughts and tips thank you!

Crag Dweller wrote: If your belayer is feeling you tug multiple times, rope drag isn't your problem, your belayer is. Edit to add: And, you're probably placing gear too far above your head. You shouldn't need to pull up that much rope, especially if you're extending draws.

I was at the top of the owl on a scramble and my belayer is really good actually he did not take me off. I kept tugging up the ropes fighting the drag on easy terrain ( frustrated ) but he kept me on the whole time.

csproul wrote:rope solo

Done that