Permadraws as progress, can someone explain?

I'm sure there are a ton of opinions and I'm not trolling or interested in starting a flamefest. I'm genuinely curious how permadraws represent progress for a sport crag. I thought the idea was to get strong enough and skilled enough to redpoint the route. Projecting would be the way to do that. Why don't people want the "extra" challenge of putting up their own draws on a route, even if its overhanging etc. ?

Wouldn't that also be safer for the climber then who would be intimately familiar with the draw protecting them instead of relying on others to maintain these draws and inspect them periodically? In my mind safety is the other draw-- no pun intended-- of sport climbing.

Let me save you the trouble of digging through my profile for ammo. I'm an old fat mostly "trad" climber who's recently become interested in sport climbing to push my trad grade while maintaining a comfortable "cushion." That and the fact that its easier to sell climbing on bolts to my wife who's home with my newborn. Flame on if you must but I'm seriuosly curious about the argument for permadraws.

--Wannabe

1. Sometimes routes are damn near impossible to clean as they are so overhanging.

2. Some routes have very hard clips where having the draw already there vs not already there really changes the flow of the route.

3. Some routes require longer draws (e.g. roofs, stalactites, etc.) on some bolts but not all bolts. Most sport climbers will have one or two 30 cm quickdraw on them and then shorter draws. Having the longer draw already in place makes it so much more convenient then trying to put a few draws together while on the on-sight.

4. etc.

That being said, I think your title should be 'Permadraws as convenience'.

I'm all for permadraws but I think it should be on a case by case basis. This seems to be the case as most of the sport routes in the world don't have fixed-draws.

Wannabe wrote:I'm sure there are a ton of opinions and I'm not trolling or interested in starting a flamefest. I'm genuinely curious how permadraws represent progress for a sport crag. I thought the idea was to get strong enough and skilled enough to redpoint the route. Projecting would be the way to do that. Why don't people want the "extra" challenge of putting up their own draws on a route, even if its overhanging etc. ? Wouldn't that also be safer for the climber then who would be intimately familiar with the draw protecting them instead of relying on others to maintain these draws and inspect them periodically? In my mind safety is the other draw-- no pun intended-- of sport climbing. Let me save you the trouble of digging through my profile for ammo. I'm an old fat mostly "trad" climber who's recently become interested in sport climbing to push my trad grade while maintaining a comfortable "cushion." That and the fact that its easier to sell climbing on bolts to my wife who's home with my newborn. Flame on if you must but I'm seriuosly curious about the argument for permadraws. --Wannabe

Just curious, how many permadraws(not at anchors) have you clipped in your lifetime?

The short answer to the original post is that permadraws make things easier, and remove one more aspect of the superfluous gear tinkering that sport climbing seeks to avoid.

That said, there are inconsistencies behind the idea of prehung draws. Everyone who is anyone now acknowledges that a redpoint, onsight, or flash ascent of a sport route is legit with permadraws. But, no matter what anyone will tell you, it is usually much harder to send a route while hanging your own draws (of course, it's harder to send a route with a cinderblock tied to your balls, too), and whatever the definition of "redpoint" is, you will get street cred whenever you send a hard sport route while hanging your own draws.

Also, if we take the premise of sport climbing as eliminating as much of the gear tinkering as possible in order to focus on just movement, it would make sense that toproping was seen as a valid end in itself on vertical or slightly overhanging rock, but this obviously has not happened; there are still enough remnants of the old contrived risk factor in sport climbing that we still construct false ideas of "leading" as rules of the game.

Finally, permadraws are simply a pragmatic acknowledgement of the growing popularity of safe, logistically easy sport climbing. In crowded areas, clusterfucks and traffic jams are avoided when every party does not have to clean its draws when it is done. And, if there are no permadraws on a popular, steep route, it is inevitable that project climbers will leave their own draws on it. For the safety of the masses, permanant cable draws and steel biners are MUCH better than the inevitable alternative, which is tatty, suspect nylon draws with softer aluminum biners that are prone towearing and sharpening.

Hope that all makes sense. A lot of folks in opposition tend to view permadraws from a perspective of rigid stylistic and ethic ideologies, and there are certainly times and places that they are not appropriate. However, given the state of the sport right now, there are plenty of occasions that they're necessary.

redlude97 wrote: Just curious, how many permadraws(not at anchors) have you clipped in your lifetime?

0 nada, none, not a single one. I thought JLP had a pretty good point as well-- I would bet that my odds of EVER clipping a permadraw aren't very high.

Camhead-- I appreciated your answer. It made sense to me and seemed super consistent with my *understanding* of what sport climbing is about.

Finally another permadraw thread!!!

DexterRutecki wrote:Finally another permadraw thread!!!

These threads should be permanent for everyone's convenience. That way we won't have to rehash the same arguments over and over again while we should be working.

Thank god! Now all the new wankers who missed the last time this topic was brought up a month ago will get a chance to add their two cents! Leeroy?

redriverclimbing.com/viewto…

Here we go again!

Nick Stayner wrote:Thank god! Now all the new wankers who missed the last time this topic was brought up a month ago will get a chance to add their two cents! Leeroy?

But what am I to do if I need information about the ethics of stick clipping a permadraw on a chipped route? Will this thread work, or should I start a new one?

Wannabe wrote:I'm sure there are a ton of opinions and I'm not trolling or interested in starting a flamefest. I'm genuinely curious how permadraws represent progress for a sport crag. I thought the idea was to get strong enough and skilled enough to redpoint the route. Projecting would be the way to do that. Why don't people want the "extra" challenge of putting up their own draws on a route, even if its overhanging etc. ? Wouldn't that also be safer for the climber then who would be intimately familiar with the draw protecting them instead of relying on others to maintain these draws and inspect them periodically? In my mind safety is the other draw-- no pun intended-- of sport climbing. Let me save you the trouble of digging through my profile for ammo. I'm an old fat mostly "trad" climber who's recently become interested in sport climbing to push my trad grade while maintaining a comfortable "cushion." That and the fact that its easier to sell climbing on bolts to my wife who's home with my newborn. Flame on if you must but I'm seriuosly curious about the argument for permadraws. --Wannabe

this link should have all the info you need

JLP wrote: Leeroy has already added plenty to the discussion as Yarp.

I'm honored that you guys have raised me to the same level as Yarp, Dexter Rutecki and Eleanor. People have been accusing me of being someone else since the day I signed up for an account. Keep guessing keyboard cowboy!

Maybe,Wannabe is Elanor back once again!! Possible?

I agree with the statement up above that explains it is just part of the convenience factor that sport climbing expects, and the lessening of gear once again could be an intent.

Chains are way cooler, they give off such an industrials vibe... Duh...

After watching a buddy nearly break his tailbone trying to back-clean Fear and Loathing, I have a far better understanding of the value of perma-draws.

camhead wrote: Also, if we take the premise of sport climbing as eliminating as much of the gear tinkering as possible in order to focus on just movement, it would make sense that toproping was seen as a valid end in itself on vertical or slightly overhanging rock, but this obviously has not happened; there are still enough remnants of the old contrived risk factor in sport climbing that we still construct false ideas of "leading" as rules of the game.

I don't think leading is so much remnants of an old ethic, but if you take sport climbing as convenient climbing eliminating most dangers from gear tinkering, the leading aspect still deals with fear and mentally preps a climber, maybe not as much as R/X trad, but the mindset is still upheld. Just my 2c.

So if I stick clip the first perma draw then rope jug up to it while placing a few TCU's along the way at the same time as i'm hanging from the next one is that a pink point, a jade point, a green point, or a magenta point just curious

J Johns wrote:So if I stick clip the first perma draw then rope jug up to it while placing a few TCU's along the way at the same time as i'm hanging from the next one is that a pink point, a jade point, a green point, or a magenta point just curious

yes.

J Johns wrote:So if I stick clip the first perma draw then rope jug up to it while placing a few TCU's along the way at the same time as i'm hanging from the next one is that a pink point, a jade point, a green point, or a magenta point just curious

that is a progression of progress digressing

camhead wrote: Also, if we take the premise of sport climbing as eliminating as much of the gear tinkering as possible in order to focus on just movement, it would make sense that toproping was seen as a valid end in itself on vertical or slightly overhanging rock, but this obviously has not happened; there are still enough remnants of the old contrived risk factor in sport climbing that we still construct false ideas of "leading" as rules of the game.

This actually doesn't seem true to me, as getting a top rope set up on most of the sport climbs I've done is actually less convenient than leading them, regardless of how steep they are. Also, even vertical sport climbs can often be a pain in the ass to TR if they have any wandering sections that aren't directly below the bolts.

Dom wrote:1. Sometimes routes are damn near impossible to clean as they are so overhanging.

Toby B wrote:After watching a buddy nearly break his tailbone trying to back-clean Fear and Loathing, I have a far better understanding of the value of perma-draws.

Perma-draws are absolutely necessary on most roof climbs IMO. Have you ever tried to clean a ceiling on rap or lower or even TR for that matter? It's dangerous and a pain in the ass.

As for the other route types: let people set there own gear. Let's keep as many gearless noobs off the rock as possible.

no reason why this should be up for debate.