Perma Draw Removal Alert -WARNING: NSFW

Jay Samuelson wrote:Maybe the locals at the red should also be taking issue with the mags and video's promoting the place without a mention of the high impact in recent years from all the climbers; articles like this make the red a 'must-see' destination for a lot of climbers, but doesn't get them thinking about impact and taking care of the place. The folks at indian creek have done a better job of bringing attention to impact from visiting climbers and getting us thinking about it.

That is precisely the article that I had in mind when I wrote my post. As a photographer I know how easy it is to make a crowded area like Smith or the Buttermilks look deserted and serene, and it is obviously tempting to do so for an article. Just as you don't see many pictures of crowded and littered beaches in Surfer's Journal or cigar butts littering a golf course in the golfing magazines, you don't see queues for popular climbs and trash on the ground in the climbing magazines.

The magazines don't have any obligation to adhere to strict non-editorialized reporting, but I think it would help the situation if every now and then they showed a glimpse of how things really are.

Community-funded permadraws: Exactly what section of the climbing community do those serve? Climbers who are too strong to climb anything but the hardest routes without becoming bored and irritable, but who are also too weak to climb them twice, which would be required to clean the draws they placed on lead. Seems like they serve a pretty narrow part of the community. If you are so obsessed with a climb's difficulty that you MUST climb it regardless of style, then you are on an ego trip, not an adventure. Funding individual self-interest shouldn't be a high priority of any "community." Disclosure: I play basketball on a 8-foot rim so I can be seen making spectacular dunks. And I'm also a big-time proud permadraw n00b.

Sprague is right, hopefully some disease will deal with the numbers issue. In the meantime here is my prediction:

Fights, Cops, arrogant bastards writing rants on why their ethics (like assholes) are superior. People trying to force stylistic tendencies on eachother. A serious thought: the question might not be what is the best style, probably because there is no answer to that question. Instead, the climbing community should be asking what is the best way to deal with the reality of the situation instead of the what the situation "should be". Lastly, ratty old fixed draws, forgotton or left for dead, will continue to be present. At an area with so much traffic, the question of "should be" is the forgotten past. People Claiming what things should be is like little whiny babies pining for the days of yore. If you want scenery, silence, and solitude, perhaps there is a better place to climb than the most popular walls at the RRG.

Irony: PD draw stripper saying he doesn't want to have to inspect every draw before he clips it, yet because he stripped the steel Perma-draw that is exactly what he is going to have to do now.

My two cents: sincerely hope that at least the Madness Cave still has PD when I visit next.

David Sahalie wrote: permadraws serve the section of the climbing community that doesn't suck at climbing. and yes there is an element of laziness, but there is also a time factor of route turnover

I would say they serve the section of the community that excels at the sport of climbing and sucks at the art of it.

Route turnover problems? Leave gym ropes permanently hanging from the climbs. Or just buy the land and have it for yourself.

David Sahalie wrote:i am a decent (5.12) slab climber btw.

David Sahalie wrote: i climbed a lot last summer on permadraws at Maple, and it didn't detract from my nature experience. i also climbed with bolts, glue, belay ledges reinforced with wood and steel, paths, signs, shitters, roads.... and i drove there in a car.

Looks like he's having a "nature experience".

Jay Samuelson wrote:The folks at indian creek have done a better job of bringing attention to impact from visiting climbers and getting us thinking about it.

You know, the creek would be a lot less hassle if I didn't have to round up 9 #1 camalots to go there.

Why don't we get together and start putting up perma-cams?

These guys need to stop and think before they act. Do the ends really justify the means?

By the way, have you guys checked out the graffiti on redriverclimbing.com/portal… yet? HAHA

Graffiti on RRC.com

Jeff Stephens wrote: Looks like he's having a "nature experience".

Maybe he's not trying to.

andrewc wrote: You know, the creek would be a lot less hassle if I didn't have to round up 9 #1 camalots to go there. Why don't we get together and start putting up perma-cams?

The best way to avoid hassle would be to just stop climbing all together and begin watching TV. What's your point? You like hassle?

M Sprague wrote:With so many visiting and shitting all over the place some sort of plague will probably hit anyway and take care of the problem.

the Zombie Apocalypse will start at the Red? BRILLIANT!!

EDIT- camhead, that is super funny!

Killis Howard wrote:I'm happy to say that the beautiful woman that shares my bed is coming home in an hour and I'm cooking tonight.

"I'm sorry, just kidding, I have a girlfriend and climb 7 days a week."

awww someone got their first girlfriend :) Thanks for sharing with everyone. Would this be the same as people spraying about climbs?

Killis Howard wrote:I'm going to point out the obvious: anyone that has to mention how hard they climb, how much they bench, or how big the diamond on their ring finger is, to prove whatever "point" they may or may not have, is:..... A total, spraying, menstrual rah-rah.

Thatd be like the same as telling everyone on an online forum how hot your gf is right?

Reasons to remove PD:
1. I can't climb those climbs.
2. I already climbed those climbs.
3. I don't like other people.
4. They make my eyes burn.
5. My friend told me so.
6. If we make a big enough stink about it we can get our access limited. Of course, we could do this with chalk, bolts, or human shit too.

Reasons to leave PD:

1. I don't want to wait for this buffoon to clean his climb.
2. I can't climb it without the draws being pre-clipped.
3. Having to first hang the draws, then climb it, then clean it would mean very few people would get to climb any one climb in a day.
4. People hang aluminum fixed draws anyway which is dangerous.
5. I love the sight of PD's and it makes me horny.

Seems to me that all these opinions are bullshit from both sides with the exception of facilitating more climbers on more climbs safely. Of course, if you really hate people it kind of defeats your purpose.

David Sahalie wrote: so if i started someone's car, drove it to the other side of the street, and put a sticky on it that said i didn't like where it was parked... that wouldn't be stealing?

Actually, no, that wouldn't be stealing.

I pretty much agree exactly with Mark Sprague's point of view. 99% of the time, Perma-draws are not warranted and should not exist. If you're working a route, hang your draws, leave them in place for a few days or weeks, then strip them when you send or the season ends. No need for steel biners and cable. This is how it works at Smith (or Rodellar, if you want an example of a steep crag) and it works just fine.

However, I totally disagree with "the nazis" acting unilaterally. John is absolutely correct; this will end badly. If they feel the way they do, fine, have a discussion and try to sway the consensus. Enacting the will of 3 people on the entire community of the Red is massively egotiscal and immature. If I were a local, I would be inclined to react in an over-the-top manner, even though I basically agree with their fundamental point, and that is the problem with making dramatic statements--you inspire the moderates against your point of view (see terrorism).

Also, aside from all the LNT stuff, basically they did this because they're a bunnch of elitist "I was here first" dickwads.

Monomaniac wrote:I pretty much agree exactly with Mark Sprague's point of view. 99% of the time, Perma-draws are not warranted and should not exist. If you're working a route, hang your draws, leave them in place for a few days or weeks, then strip them when you send or the season ends. No need for steel biners and cable. This is how it works at Smith (or Rodellar, if you want an example of a steep crag) and it works just fine. However, I totally disagree with "the nazis" acting unilaterally. John is absolutely correct; this will end badly. If they feel the way they do, fine, have a discussion and try to sway the consensus. Enacting the will of 3 people on the entire community of the Red is massively egotiscal and immature. If I were a local, I would be inclined to react in an over-the-top manner, even though I basically agree with their fundamental point, and that is the problem with making dramatic statements--you inspire the moderates against your point of view (see terrorism). Also, aside from all the LNT stuff, basically they did this because they're a bunnch of elitist "I was here first" dickwads.

I can see where you are coming from, however, do you really think that people will end up cleaning their draws? If not, then there is a problem. I am thinking of Rifle before it got PD'd. I think it is safer now than it was, but only time will tell.

David Sahalie wrote: i climbed a lot last summer on permadraws at Maple, and it didn't detract from my nature experience. i also climbed with bolts, glue, belay ledges reinforced with wood and steel, paths, signs, shitters, roads.... and i drove there in a car.

and later

David Sahalie wrote:funny how a climber doesn't see the chalk, just the draws.

The implied argument is, to be frank, bullshit. Any climbing activity has some impact, that much is obvious. It is our responsibility as climbers and stewards of the land we use to find a compromise between preservation and use, erring on the side preservation, if you ask me. The fact that a crag has deviated from its natural state with chalk, glue, or whatever does not grant an automatic "fuck it, nature is gone, anything goes" - on the contrary, such conditions warrant extra care to ensure that damage does not escalate.

In rare cases permadraws are essential, and those situations are obvious to anyone who has a clue. Most of the time they are simply convenient, and you won't find me losing sleep when they wander off. As for this situation - not how I would have handled it, but as I said, not losing any sleep either.

Johny Q wrote: I can see where you are coming from, however, do you really think that people will end up cleaning their draws? If not, then there is a problem. I am thinking of Rifle before it got PD'd. I think it is safer now than it was, but only time will tell.

I would remove my draws, in fact I've removed old shitty draws at Rifle and replaced them with my own during the course of working a route, then removed my draws when I was finished. But I agree Rifle is safer now. Is it more aesthetic?

For all of you naysayers who say that it's just too hard to clean draws on steep ground, take a look here:

mountainproject.com/v/10681…

Part of the access agreement at this wall strictly prohibits permadraws and even quickdraws left on the wall overnight. Is cleaning them a pain in the ass? Doubtless. That said, it can be done, and the aesthetic value of the whole area is improved as a result (with the number of linkups there, it would look like that photo of Jon Cardwell if it had them), as the rock is so featured bolts tend to blend in.

I thought the permadraws at the Undertow Wall were unsightly when I visited there last year (disclaimer, I was just hiking, I had no business climbing there back then). I have cleaned draws off of fairly steep walls at the Red, and while it is hard, I do believe the extra effort is justified because walls without permadraws are actually more inviting to me, and seem less artificial.

One more thought for my mini-rant: it really bugs me when people argue that since rap-bolting was eventually accepted, and climbing with pre-hung draws was eventually accepted, etc., then permadraws everywhere should be accepted because this is the trend. I agree that there is a clear trend towards leaving fixed draws on all sport routes that we should follow. By this logic, as others have pointed out, we might as well just figure out what the lowest common denominator is and get to it because an eventual arrival there is inevitable. While moving lines along quickly and preventing the use of worn-out aluminum draws are important factors, it doesn't seem necessary to neglect aesthetic considerations in order to deal with the problem.