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Devil's Head guidebook poaching

Dave Meyers · · Evergreen, CO · Joined May 2006 · Points: 512
Mike Lane wrote:Where does 11 Mile fit in with all this, btw?
Mike, I was just curious if Jason will be using Ben’s new 11-mile book to help him “research” routes to be included in the Southern South Platte Book. Based on his actions here, I think that it’s highly probable.
Dave Meyers · · Evergreen, CO · Joined May 2006 · Points: 512
Tony B wrote: One page of upset climbers... at most. By my count, 8, including Tod. There are a lot of repeat posters. And some that are only upset about the attempted lynching that occurred based on assumptions that were unfounded and before any attempt to get the story was even made. Upset about the book: Dave M. Chris C Tom R (?) Bill B Todd A Rags Tod (Tzilla) Derek L Not Upset about the book: Blake H Richard M Slim Tony B Dougald M. Kirra Base Crag Dweller Jack Roberts Jason Haas Phil L Kevin S Darren M Hard to tell: Percious Mike L I do note that most of the people who are upset are friends of Tod's. So I don't think it represents the climbing community in general. I think it represents Tod and his circle of friends.
Tony, Let me be clear on my opinion. I’m in no way opposed to the new South Platte book. I think that the Hubble book is out dated, incorrect on many topo’s, and generally not very good. I think all of us can agree that the new Splatte book has been long overdue.
However, I am opposed to including DH in this guide book for all the already mentioned reasons. Furthermore, I think that how Jason has handled this situation is very unethical and deceitful. Lastly, with a sample size of 23 people, I doubt you have any significant conclusions about the climbing community.
kirra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 530

does Peter Hubbel's "South Platte, Rockclimber's guide" fit into this discussion ?

wow great minds... dave -that's my question

Jason Haas · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 1,582

Dave et al, 11 Mile Canyon will not be a part of the South Platte book. Devil's Head has been documented in books and periodacals (and even this very website) as being a part of the South Platte for over 60 years. 11-Mile on the other hand has always been regarded as outside of the Platte.

Derek Lawrence · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 695
Jason Haas wrote:Dave et al, 11 Mile Canyon will not be a part of the South Platte book. Devil's Head has been documented in books and periodacals (and even this very website) as being a part of the South Platte for over 60 years. 11-Mile on the other hand has always been regarded as outside of the Platte.
Per this website 11 mile is part of the platte...

mountainproject.com/v/south…
Chris Cavallaro · · Lone Tree, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 151
Jason Haas wrote:Dave et al, 11 Mile Canyon will not be a part of the South Platte book. Devil's Head has been documented in books and periodacals (and even this very website) as being a part of the South Platte for over 60 years. 11-Mile on the other hand has always been regarded as outside of the Platte.
Sir Jason; After reading all of this and seeing the debacle it has created, are you really still going to include DH? Really?

You seem to chime in with vague comments and it appears that you are avoiding the issue. Please respond to the issue at hand.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Dave Meyers wrote: ...I am opposed to including DH in this guide book for all the already mentioned reasons. Furthermore, I think that how Jason has handled this situation is very unethical and deceitful. Lastly, with a sample size of 23 people, I doubt you have any significant conclusions about the climbing community.
As for the drawing conclusions about the climbing community based on 23 people, if you re-read my comment, you will see that was precisely my point:

Tony B wrote: ... I do note that most of the people who are upset are friends of Tod's. So I don't think it represents the climbing community in general. I think it represents Tod and his circle of friends.
If I thought for a moment that 1/3 of the community was opposed to something, I'd feel differently than I do about this.
Frankly, I'm ambivalent about much of it, other than that people attacked without asking the whole story. Now that they are asking I for one, think Jason should state outright more than he has, but it's his decision not to do so and to leave you and others abused of the idea that Tod is wholly innocent in this matter.

Some questions I haven't seen addressed
When did Jason start writing his book (I knew about it in spring 2008) Vs when was that latest version of RRR conceived? (???) and printed? (2010).
What points did Tod perhaps offer and what concessions did Tod perhaps agree to that convinced Jason to say, 2 years ago, that his own guidebook would go incomplete (exempt Devil's head)? Were they fulfilled? How did the discussions go about that matter?

I hate to see all of Tod's friends jumping on Jason publicly about it without knowing the whole story, but I guess if Jason decides not to defend himself with everything available, that would be the expected outcome.

I wouldn't mind hearing both sides address it outright in writing, but perhaps, as a mutual friend of Jason and Tod put it to me yesterday, perhaps they don't want to cause more conflict:
"I don't really think the flames should be fanned anymore, but I think my opinion is based on knowing and respecting both of these guys. I hope both of them can come out with their reputations intact."

And with that, I think I've said all I care to say. The rest is up to Jason and Tod.
Tony B · · Around Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 24,665
Monomaniac wrote: When is the Stewart Green, Dave Pegg, Jon Thesenga,..., lynching?
Perhaps you slept through the JT lynching.
Hint JT stands for both Jon Thesenga and Joshua Tree... man, was that ever a "flame fest."
Jason Haas · · Broomfield, CO · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 1,582

Touché Derek. Still, no 11-mile in the book.

As for Tony's statement about explaining more of the back story, I'm sorry but I must decline. This is an issue between two people, Tod and me and I do not wish to disparage anyone on the Internet. I realize in doing so people can and certainly have taken ignorant shots at me. I have emailed Tod and hopefully the two of us can move past this at some point. Despite the heat from his friends, it's great to see them stick up so adamently for him. Tod truly is blessed to have such loyal friends.

RyanO · · sunshine · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 145
Jason Haas wrote:Devil’s Head is completely surrounded by other crags that are within the South Platte and are not included in any in-print guidebook.
Regarding DH and 11mile in the new splatte book.. I think of these areas as outside the south platte not so much based on the geology and geography, as on the feel of the routes at each of these fine destinations. DH and 11mile just don't FEEL like the rest of the south platte, y'know what I MEAN MAN?! DH and 11mile are sport parks - enjoyable climbing in a beautiful setting. The south platte is a wild land of granite domes, burnt trees, faint trails, and wild raspberries. They exist on two completely different planes of reality - and it makes sense to have them covered as such.

Jason Haas wrote:So in the end, we decided to include the area and have personally climbed 100% of the Devil’s Head routes that will appear in the guidebook.
As would be expected. Good on you for that.

If you must include the area, the question then becomes: which routes are included? Only 4 star routes? Only those at the most popular crags? Top 100?

Seems like you guys could have DH (and 11mile too) in the new book without really impinging on RRR in any big way. This allows y'all to make your comprehensive guide, and RRR to continue sales to the serious DH sporto. Maybe that's the best solution here - only time will tell.

Either way - I look forward the the new south platte book - and I will most definitely buy the next DH book as well. As Olaf once said:

Olaf Mitchell wrote:...there is plenty of room in the Platte for every one.
ClimberRunner · · Redmond, WA · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 25

What a stupid display!

  • Since when is guidebook writing some sort of altruistic community service project? Maybe Jason isn't trying to earn his merit badge so much as make a product people will be happy to buy. Many of the arguments against him seem premised on the idea that attempts at making the guide popular/profitable are inherently bad. (Dear FOX, please go off the air. PBS was a nonprofit channel for decades. They give back to the community. Sincerely, confused consumers)
  • On the first page it was only the 'plagiarism' that folks like Tom R. were pissed over. Then they realized there was no plagiarism. But by golly they were going to stay pissed one way or another! And they weren't going to apologize for making dishonest accusations either.
  • Next they decided/implied that drilling lots of bolts into the rock has given Todd some exclusive guidebook-making rights for some crags in the Platte. If I bolt it, I own it! And I use the money for more bolts, so f*%k consumer choice, I'll tell you what guides can describe the area! (how long do these imaginary publication rights last? are there royalties I can sell when I get bored of re-writing new versions?)

Can you imagine the absurdity of this same thing happening in an alpine area? (No Hulk in the Sierra Guide, Croft wants to write his own for his routes on that crag!)

I'd love to hear a single one of Jason's detractors explicitly state what rights Todd should be granted by virtue of having drilled bolts at Devil's Head, and if anyone bolting a crag anywhere should receive them as well.

Forget the haters Jason, I think it is asinine to intentionally leave big sections of the Splatte out of your book because a few cranky dudes bolted it first. It's public land. Your ability to use a bosch doesn't give you ownership over the crag or exclusive rights to describe it in print. Thunder Ridge was mostly developed by two climbers, and they posted it for the public on MP.com. But by the logic used by Todd's Team, they could have published their own paper guidebook for the crag and told Jason it was "off limits" to his area guide. What a joke!


I say that any author should simply write the best guidebook they can, and be upfront about where the profits are going. Climbers can determine the superior product at the cash register. I'm looking forward to a South Platte guidebook that covers the whole region, not just the areas where the route developers aren't morons...
jmapping · · Carbondale, co · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 766

We wouldn't have these sorts of issues if the incredibly motivated people that make these guidebooks spent their time contributing to open websites (like Mountain Project) rather than making guides they don't make enough money from anyway. With a little web-site improvement Mountain Project could be a full on guidebook resource without the glossy cover. We would also have FREE access to route information... Or would we?

Randy Soulis · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 10

I'm new to the website and relatively new to climbing. I say vote or speak with your money. It sounds like Tod has invested a lot in the DH area and it also sounds like money from his guidebook will go back into the area. So, I'm off to buy Rampart Range Rocks.

Wiled Horse · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2002 · Points: 3,669
Tony B wrote: Perhaps you slept through the JT lynching. Hint JT stands for both Jon Thesenga and Joshua Tree... man, was that ever a "flame fest."
and Justin Timberlake! woo!
Crag Dweller · · New York, NY · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Tony B wrote: ... Not Upset about the book including Devil's Head: ...Crag Dweller...
I didn't say that I was or wasn't upset...just commented on the 'poaching' claim.

It doesn't really matter what I think about the book including DH but it does seem like a personal issue couldn't be resolved and, as a result, they both missed out on an opportunity to help the climbing community in a small, but nice way.

There isn't much need for DH in another guidebook. A very good guide for the area was just recently published. But, it was included in the new guide, increasing publication cost of the new guide. And, I can only assume that cost will be passed onto the consumer - me and others on here.

But, since the rest of the new guide is new and/or improved, those of us who want that info will have to pay again for info we already have.

What would've been really cool is if the two authors had gotten over whatever the issue was, promoted each other's book within their own, and passed along the savings to the climbing community.

Not to mention the fact that they'd collectively be saving trees in their production of books covering an area was ravaged by wildfire.

FWIW, I don't personally know either of the parties involved and I have no bias. And, I don't really care who stole whose lunch money.
JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195
Wombat wrote:We wouldn't have these sorts of issues if the incredibly motivated people that make these guidebooks spent their time contributing to open websites (like Mountain Project) rather than making guides they don't make enough money from anyway. With a little web-site improvement Mountain Project could be a full on guidebook resource without the glossy cover. We would also have FREE access to route information... Or would we?
-1 Two Thumbs Down!
JPVallone · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2004 · Points: 195
clackmon wrote:this thread smells like pee pee
+1
Tom R · · Denver, CO · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 140
Jason Haas wrote:So those here worrying about plagiarism and accuracy can rest assured that we have done our own independent research.
I apologize for using the word plagiarism in my earlier post. I jumped the gun a bit, since I have not seen your upcoming guide.
I do have to ask what exactly led you to the crags and routes on the Lower West Side, though. It certainly was not the first ascentionists, who have mostly commented on this thread and have not been interviewed by you for descriptions or route/crag names. And none of those crags or routes are mentioned in magazine articles since they did not exist until very recently. The only known written source of information on approaches, route names, descritions and crag names in the Lower West Side of Devil's Head is Tod's book. So I hope you can see how I would jump to that conclusion.
percious · · Bear Creek, CO · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,190
Tom R wrote: It certainly was not the first ascentionists, who have mostly commented on this thread and have not been interviewed by you for descriptions or route/crag names. And none of those crags or routes are mentioned in magazine articles since they did not exist until very recently.
I can back this up by saying I was the FA on most of the TRAD lines indicated in Tod's book for the LWS. I did not publish that data to MP other than in the form of pictures of the ascent. I was not interviewed.

However, I think it is difficult to make a claim of plagiarism if you use someone's guide book to find a climb and describe it yourself. It would seem non-sensicle from a standpoint to "patent" climbs in this way. This is happening in the food industry and it is a travesty. I don't think we want the same ethics brought to our sport.

What do I know? I'm just a hippie who cut off his pony tail and who tries to climb whenever he can. I realize people put effort into developing areas (me too!) and it's great to give back to those developers. Maybe it's more appropriate to ask for a donation for the guide book like they do for Horsetooth and Poudre. I know that donating my time and some bolts to the cause of creating safe, classic sport climbs has been well worth the effort, and I would hate to see disagreements between various climbing factions ruin that.

I choose not to decide, and I hope that makes neither friend nor foe of my good climbing friends, including those whom I have utmost respect as a mentor and also the gentle hearted climber that gave me a ride one time for my lead test.
Peter L K · · Cincinnati, OH · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 45

This thread is ridiculous. If Jason didn't plagiarize, more power to him.

No one writes guidebooks for the money. I personally think that donating any proceeds is very commendable, but I wouldn't expect it, and I don't mind if authors take all profits to the bank. You work hard at your job, and they probably work harder at theirs.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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