First Ascensionists chopping bolts on own routes.

Apparently Henry Barber had all bolts chopped on his route on Superpin, including the one he himself used during his FA.

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I am not quite sure what to think of it. Aside from the issue of chopping retro-bolted routes, I was wondering to what extent the first ascensionists "own" the route and have right to re-define it as Barber clearly did (if it was him) by having his own pro chopped after 35 years?

It appears from the ST thread that Barber chopped a retrobolt, albeit one he has ignored for 35 years.

Statute of limitations?

My biggest beef is with the bolt that was originally placed by Barber. That one got stripped, too.

Kris Gorny wrote:My biggest beef is with the bolt that was originally placed by Barber. That one got stripped, too.

Henry never placed a bolt on Superpin.

I have done the route sevral times but it's been awhile.

I remember; The flake(with pin) and 2 bolts. The first placed by Barber, the second bolt was added later. When I first did it in the early 80' heard it was added after the first ascent, I remember discussing this with local guys who where there when the bolt was added.

Barber chopped the added bolt and his own.

that's how I remember it.

My understanding from the posts in the Supertopo thread is that Barber did it first, with no bolts, just a fixed pin at the start.

A couple guys didn't like this because they were working the route as a project and felt Barber swooped the route from them. Then one of these guys tries to repeat the route, but chickens out and has to be rescued. After the rescue party lassos the top of the pinnacle, this guy goes back down, grabs a bolt kit, and then places a bolt with the assistance of the fixed rescue line.

A second bolt then appeared sometime later, added by an unknown party.

And as I said, this is just the info I've gathered from the supertopo thread, since I wasn't born until some years after this shit-show went down.

Eric Engberg wrote: Henry never placed a bolt on Superpin.

Yup. Probably should get your facts straight before you start calling people out in a public forum.

Plus, Barber asked that the bolt be chopped 35 yrs. ago after first learning that it was placed but no one wanted to take care of it at the time. If someone retrobolted Bacher-Yerian and Bachar asked them to be chopped, would it be wrong for Bachar (or his son) to take care of it well after the fact? I don't think so.

So, what gear was placed ? Nut or a sling behind the flake, pin higher up at the bulge and no bolt? I understand there's nothing now. Would it be ok to place the pin again? And where did you get your facts, Fat Dad? First hand?

It's Henry Barber. He did it without a bolt, which was added later. This is from Ron Gold on the Supertopo thread:

"Henry did the route without the bolt. (The fixed pin at the start of the route he clipped was also clipped by Pete Cleveland and has nothing to do with the issue.) Then, I don't know, ten or more people repeated the route without the bolt, including John Bragg and I. The route without the bolt was totally within the realm of competent climbers who knew how to deal with the mental issues of runout climbing. I've heard 5.8 mentioned; Bragg and I thought the upper part was 5.7. Whatever the grade, the Needles already had a number of climbs with seriously runout 5.7-5.8 climbing, and this route, although surely a brilliant bit of climbing, was not a major breakthrough and was fully within Needles climbing traditions going back to the Conn's."

Again, since I'm not the one who initiated this thread, rather than demanding proof of MY beliefs, you should have verified the facts before making a public attack. You can't unring a bell.

Kris Gorny wrote:My biggest beef is with the bolt that was originally placed by Barber. That one got stripped, too.

This is what you said. You were wrong. Fess up and stop back peddling.

Then you can continue with the whole religious war about retro-bolting. Pretty predictable how that one will go.

Fat Dad wrote:It's Henry Barber. He did it without a bolt, which was added later. This is from Ron Gold on the Supertopo thread:

That's Rich Goldstone BTW.

I am not back peddling. I am not in a pursuit of a "religious" war and I never demanded any proofs (?) for my beliefs. As for getting my facts, I did the route and talked to a bunch of guys who did, including one who climbed it early, 8 years after FA. According to him the bolts higher up were placed on rappel after the local guy freaked. The first bolt was placed by Henry Barber. So, there was Pete Cleveland's pin and Henry Barber's bolt higher up. So there, we have two respectful climbers, one claiming Barber placed no bolts, one saying he did. If I am wrong, I have no problems admitting it.

Gunkiemike wrote: That's Rich Goldstone BTW.

Duh. I think I knew that but was clearly thinking of something else when typing.

Wow that's pretty crazy after all this time. On the one hand I think it's great as in it's good to leave routes as they were first done, on the other hand it's been so long why now.

Pretty sure that the Cleavland route is on the other side completely and has no bolts at all.

The Barber route used to have one fixed pin to protect the crux and then the one bolt that was added after the fact. That story of Mike Todd and the lasso rescue and then drilling, while lassoed to the rock, is the stuff of Needle's lore and legend. As I recall people had talked him into going up there thinking there would be a stance to drill from but there wasn't.

I only led the route twice the second time I did fall onto the pin (only about 2 feet) and was quite surprised when it held. I really expected to go all the way down the gully and be completely messed up. Once you pulled the bulge it's mostly 5.8 or easier by the time you get to the now chopped bolt it's pretty much over.

So is the pin still there all of the post refer to bolts as in more then one. Was a bolt placed in more recent years, I haven't been there since 97.

Really this climb was always a solo most anybody who I knew to climb it didn't think that falling was an option. No one trusted the pin and the one bolt up high came after all of the hard climbing.

Like I said at the top it seems strange after all these years. On the other hand it would be quite lame if all of the classic head trip routes got bolted over.

Mike Todd drilled the bolt by hand above the pin. He was talked into it by his climbing partner, a well known local and FA guy at Devils Tower. I only remember clipping that one bolt when I did in 1981 it with the guy who talked Mike into drilling it. I think Mark Smedley might of been the last guy to lead it with just the pin. Brent Kertzman may remember more.

Here's a description from 1983 "Touch the Sky", with Cleveland's route called Route 1, and Barber's route called Route 2:
"Follow the line of Route 1 to the pinnacle like stance. Move left onto the northeast ridge and continue straight up until you can make a thin move to the right to a bolt. Go diagonally up right to the southwest corner and rejoin Route 1 which leads to the summit. FA: 16 August 1977; Henry Barber, Dennis Horning, Chip Lee".

The question is whether Barber placed that bolt or not. I believed he did and recently had it chopped. According to Eric Rhicard, the bolt was placed by Mike Todd. Gentlemen, I was wrong, I put a foot in my mouth and shut up. My apologies to Henry Barber.

From my copy of A Climber's Guide to the Needles of South Dakota by Bob Kamps copyright 1971.

"(5.10) First ascent August 8, 1967 by Pete Cleveland in a manner as pure as the spire itself. This seldom-to-be repeated route passes the overhang just west of the NE corner(5.10) to some small holds. After passing the overhang, traverse diagonally right to the SW corner and follow it to the summit."

"The rating does not indicate the hazardous nature of this route. There are not cracks or ledges above the initial overhang. The final forty feet (5.0-5.8) must be done with no protection."

Barber had not done his line on Superpin yet. This guide had no grade in the legend higher than 5.10.

I am guessing that if Kamps were around he wouldn't mind the chop. I did it with the bolt but I don't care if it goes as it was added without Barbers consent. It isn't that hard up there but a broken knob and you will be an accident report. Be careful.

This all sounds pretty far-fetched....

My memory is wrong. Dingus Magee, Dennis Horning tells the story (he was there) over on Super Topo. Mike did drill the bolt but he did it on Rappel after Dennis Horning rescued him by solo climbing a nearby spire and getting a rope to him.

Pretty interesting.