A fixed draw argument to fixate on.

Posted in neither the trad or sport section because it's both.

For sport climbing I don't believe it's worth mentioning whether a route has hanging draws or if you dragged them up yourself. It's sport, the draws are fixed. If the draws weren't fixed you either worked too hard (didn't aid up with a stick clip, rap down, or send someone else up first) or you climbed a route too easy. This is NOT what the debate I want in this thread is over, this is simply me defining how I (and most others) consider proper sport style. This has been the case for longer than I've been climbing, 15 years, and arguments to the contrary are usually naive or curmudgeon. There is no redpoint or pinkpoint, only sending or not.

OK, that's out of the way and it's accepted (or at least pretend). Lets move on.

For trad, also unchanged in the 15 years I've climbed, is that you have to place all your gear ground up. The exceptions are if you lower off a totally inconsequential place to clean the route, pull the rope, and try again. By inconsequential, I mean a ledge or stance or the 5.8 handcrack after the 5.12 crux. Another exception is that of fixed gear. It's not your fault someone got shit stuck. It sucks that it's there, it's best avoided, but sometimes it has to get clipped. Yo-yo ascents died out before my testicles descended. Don't bring that up. Short story, if you don't place all your gear on lead, it's a pinkpoint. A pinkpoint serves as a placeholder in your (my) mind as something to come back and send in proper style, not an end in itself.

Now we've got all that taken care of. We're almost ready to get to the point of my ramblings.

Imagine you are trying to send a "trad" route with one or two bolts. You fall and clean the gear to try again. The onsite ship has sailed, this could be your 39th attempt for the sake of this argument. Ground up ideas are out the window too, you've beaten this puppy to death on TR. Hell, for all I fucking care, you've ticked your gear placements. Now, when you're lowering off, do you take the quickdraws off the bolts?

For the life of me, I can't see the point in removing a draw from a bolt as long as the bolt isn't in the wrong damn place, forcing you to crux out to clip it (if it is in the wrong place, I'd rather fart in the bolter's sleeping bag than unclip it just to "create" a crux). Still, there is a little voice in the back of my head that's telling me to drag the draws up and clip them like a man. I don't know. I really don't have an answer.

So, mostly trad route with a bolt or two. Is it proper if the draws are hanging and everything else goes in ground up?

I am defining a fixed draw as a quickdraw between 6" and 12" long, hanging off a standard bolt. Not a fixed draw on fixed gear and not a fixed draw on a piton (though that might be a worthwhile other thread).

Ideas?

I can't possibly imagine a topic any more trivial than this.

It really depends on what your sponsors think.

whichever sister kisses you the best

Wow, is this what climbing is for some people?

I think a more interesting debate would be...

Regarding your shoes:
Do you tie/un-tie each time, leave tied and slip in/out, use velcro (hook & loop if you wear patagonia) or is the Salomon sliding cordlock system the most MANLY or Bad-Ass way to secure your foot wear?

Did you look the route up in the mountain project database? It should say there.

John another way to look at it is would it make a difference if it were an FFA rather than just a personal redpoint? Would/should that change anything? And why

I don't think it matters.. draw or no draw.

all that matters is if you get to the top.

johnL wrote: Hasn't this been the case for you for the last 3 years?

It is climbing, most of these discussions are trivial.

Why wouldn't you unclip the bolt. Do you want to clip/place all the gear on the route from the ground or not. We worked a route last year and at times a stopper could not be pulled because the nut tool was on the ground. We would count one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand before we clipped it when we tried to redpoint. Just what we felt good about. Finally did it placing all the gear from the bottom. You do what you want. Just be honest about the way you did it.

I'd give it to you john

Eric Dorsey wrote:I can't possibly imagine a topic any more trivial than this.

If it's a sport route, it's really irrelevant if it was put up on lead or on rappel to me. So I wouldn't take into consideration how it was bolted.

It's a freaking bolt, you didn't drill the hole on lead, you didn't put the hanger on the bolt, how is leaving a draw hanging on it any different than that. Fixed gear is fixed, who cares if it has a draw or not, It takes no extra skill to clip a draw to a bolt. Placing gear on the other hand takes extra skill, you have to find a good placement, choose the right sized piece, and place it correctly. That's why indian creek is sprad, you take 10 gold camalots and place them just like a draw which brings me to my question, can you call it a redpoint in the creek if all the cams are prehung....

johnL wrote:If you're climbing routes that take 10 gold Camalots in the creek, I'd go as far as to say you aren't climbing at all.

Just do the flashy thing and go for the onsight again.

What about falling off a trad route, cleaning all gear below the piece you weighted, then climbing back up to the bail-piece, removing it, putting it back on harness, re-place it, then send. Is that a true Redpoint? I say yes and have sent a few lines this way. I consider it full-credit. POINTLESS yet fun discussion.

Ben Sachs wrote:What about falling off a trad route, cleaning all gear below the piece you weighted, then climbing back up to the bail-piece, removing it, putting it back on harness, re-place it, then send.

I repeat Gunkiemike's comment... Do you people honestly care that much? It's just climbing...