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Waimea Perma Draw Discussion

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
Jake D. wrote: Hahaha keep telling yourself that because no one else gives a shit.
That's the joke.

Locals may explain why you can't hang perma-draws on an 11 to some eager 16 year old but will they give a shit and just keep hanging them anyway?

Just cause I don't climb 5.13 doesn't mean I haven't climbed steep rock nor does it mean I can't understand physics.

Like I said, perma-draw all you want, but I think there will be unintended consequences.
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
James Otey wrote:This entire issue is being taken care of by a core group of locals who share a reasonable and pragmatic sentiment on the Waimea issue. I posted this thread in an attempt to organize this core group, but it has clearly caught flack from people who aren't readily involved in the outcome of the process. I was wrong in placing this discussion in an open forum. Let me be clear: this was not meant to be a discussion of ethics, but internet anonymity has brought it down to that level. This is not a question of "unsightly draws for lazy climbers." It is a question of safety and longevity. We WILL be fixing certain lines on Waimea with custom low visual impact draws. This is an improvement over what we have now, and have had for the last 10 years. The issue is one for locals, and has been moved into that circle. We greatly appreciate the feedback and suggestions, but it's time to take this another way. Thanks all!
I think at least a few of us have been able to keep our opinions out of the conversation for the most part. At least I've tried to keep mine down to a minimum. Please don't ignore the Climb Tech info below:

I've seen a few different color tubes as they have been using these at the Cirque at the New for quite a while now. Kenny had a bunch laying around in the Waterstones office once day and I remember thinking that they grey wasn't much of an improvement over the bright aqua. So make sure you get a sample before dropping a bunch of money on a color that you might not like. I don't understand why they don't make the tubes in black.

Also, when Brent removed the Climb Tech draws from "Proper Soul" so that Spencer could film the gear ascent, we found that more than one quick link had been bent so badly that the threads had popped out of the screw closure part. These draws hadn't been up for that long... less than a year maybe? Not good performance for a "perma-draw."

FWIW, Wiamea is a pretty awesome wall and it would be a shame to walk up there and see a bunch of green or silver tubes hanging down. Get them to make you black ones or at least cover them in electrical tape!
Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
James Otey wrote:Epic de-evolution. I'm done with this thread. Thank you to everyone who put forth an opinion. It's in the locals hands now... Well, it always has been :)
Guess I'm too late...
nhclimber · · Newmarket, NH · Joined Apr 2007 · Points: 1,355

wow, the ego's here. I always thought it was the MWV climbers that were supposed to be elitist...

Jake D. · · Northeast · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 365
Nick Rhoads wrote: That's the joke. Locals may explain why you can't hang perma-draws on an 11 to some eager 16 year old but will they give a shit and just keep hanging them anyway? Just cause I don't climb 5.13 doesn't mean I haven't climbed steep rock nor does it mean I can't understand physics. Like I said, perma-draw all you want, but I think there will be unintended consequences.
again. There have been nylon permadraws there for 10+ years. They are just trying to make them more durable.

If he had asked for people to donate extra nylon dogbones and bailbiners to the cause would that make you feel better because they are replacing things with what is already up?

whatever.. i'm tired of arguing with someone that doesn't understand what is going on and is trying to make it seem WAY worse than it is. Would you be freaking out if they were replacing some 5 piece bolts with new glue ins? cuz that is basically what is going on. They are updating the in-situ gear. that is it.

if James is still skimming this I'd think that Predator and Orangahang would be good candidates too.
M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

I personally think some of the dissenting voices here are making legitimate points, and the points of view they are expressing should not be completely disregarded. It is good to check your self with opposing views and make sure you are not running away with a narrow point of view over influenced by inbreeding of a small group. It can get like the town of Nada ( or Millinocket, ME) Of course, those people living there actually have to deal with local conditions and make decisions of how they want to live. Naturally, those persons who actually climb at Waimea and are very familiar with the place should carry more weight in a local decision.

Besides wanting to do what they want to do, locals are reluctant to rehash the whole fixed draw thing, because we already had an RCA meeting to do that and came to a compromise. The compromise to deal with aesthetics, convenience, safety, and the letter of Forest Service rules that consider fixed draws to be abandoned property after 14 days and therefor not allowed, was to keep the ones established at certain crags, not allow them to spread to others, and make them as camouflaged as possible. The idea was not to allow the numbers to grow, so to pick the ones that really needed them and for individuals to maintain them and take down any crappy ones. The grade of 5.12 as a cut-off point was a semi arbitrary other way to keep the numbers down.( At these crags, there is usually somebody in the party who can put up the draws easily on easier routes and those who climb 5.12 most likely have climbed long enough to know not to steal the draws)

So, I think we can have a valid discussion here if we keep it civil and also remember that the locals, who also have varied points of view, have already discussed it at great length and come to a working arrangement. Jake, not to censor you or something, but throwing in a bunch of "fuck you" and "fuck offs" is not a great way to communicate and just makes conversation degenerate. Person's experiences with the various makes of fixed draws are very helpful.

Peter Beal · · Boulder Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,825

I'd like to add, as a one-time NE local and someone who has climbed at Rumney, that shutting down debate, complaining about Internet attacks, and saying the locals have settled the matter is asking for even more trouble. I am sure you all recall Ken Nichols. Removing (very expensive) cable draws is even easier than vandalizing bolts. Also, clearly nothing is preventing anyone from leaving draws of whatever kind on easier routes at Rumney, regardless of what happens on Waimea. Who is planning on policing that? And finally who gets sued in the unlikely event that a permadraw fails? If I don't want to use them, I just have to try another route?

The argument is supposed to be one of safety to avoid the obvious counter-argument that it is all about convenience. Personally I think there is something essential about climbing that always respects using the bare minimum of means to get the problem solved. Setting up permanent draws is not part of that. They are for convenience, plain and simple. If locals are truly concerned about safety and aesthetics, they can organize annual draw-cleaning events to clear out the old tat and encourage the removal of draws after climbers are finished climbing.

Jake D. · · Northeast · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 365

I only told Tom to fuck off because it's been twice in a week that he's stepped into a conversation that he knows none of the facts and has no experience with the issue.

coeus admitted that he was trolling.

Nick i thought i was responding to the issues but maybe i wasn't doing it well enough. i dunno i'm done trying to talk to him anyway.

E thatcher · · Plymouth/ North Conway (NH) · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 915

Jake, just because you have the constitutional right to be an abrasive ass hole doesn't mean you should be. Your actions on this bored affect the broader climbing communities view of those who call Rumney home, no matter how unfounded that may be. I would hate for people to shy away from Rumney thinking the locals are abrasive because they've read your comments on mountain project.

Please, before you post on something you feel passionately about, think about how the wording of your statement WILL affect other peoples views of all Rumney climbers.
-Erik

GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302

James, I've moved from the Northeast, but I'm still happy to throw a few bucks into the coffer for this worthy project. Let me know when you have a plan together, and how I can x-fer $$ to you.

Thanks for your efforts!

GO

Ryan Williams · · London (sort of) · Joined May 2009 · Points: 1,245
GabeO wrote:James, I've moved from the Northeast, but I'm still happy to throw a few bucks into the coffer for this worthy project. Let me know when you have a plan together, and how I can x-fer $$ to you. Thanks for your efforts! GO
Too bad there are too many ego's in here for the OP to continue to contribute to, or even read this thread. I'm afraid you and I are both trying to help in our own way, but our comments and offers will go un-noticed because of a bunch of people arguing about an area that they've never even been to.
Rajiv Ayyangar · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 220

Peter, thanks for chiming in.

Peter Beal wrote:... Also, clearly nothing is preventing anyone from leaving draws of whatever kind on easier routes at Rumney, regardless of what happens on Waimea. Who is planning on policing that?
The current system of not leaving draws up on routes below 5.12 seems to work. I have not noticed any problems with draws being fixed on easier routes, and I don't see why that would change in the future. There are a number of possible reasons why this works - maybe climbers don't care about extended projecting until they get to 12, or maybe they just aren't invested enough to drop $ on gear. Whatever the reasons, it works now.

And finally who gets sued in the unlikely event that a permadraw fails? If I don't want to use them, I just have to try another route?

Who gets sued if the current tat fails? I don't think there will be any difference in liability in the future. Climbing is at your own risk.

Peter Beal wrote:The argument is supposed to be one of safety to avoid the obvious counter-argument that it is all about convenience. Personally I think there is something essential about climbing that always respects using the bare minimum of means to get the problem solved. Setting up permanent draws is not part of that. They are for convenience, plain and simple.
I think the fact that we have fixed draws is about convenience, no two ways about it. Changing out those fixed draws for permadraws is about safety.

I understand your sentiment, and I don't think anyone would disagree that it is slightly better style to place your own draws on lead - whether projecting or going for a redpoint. However that sentiment - doing a route in the cleanest, most minimal way possible - has much more sway in trad, where people note the style of the ascent as part of the experience. In Sport, these factors aren't as important as climbing hard and being safe. It's a different ethic than trad, and in my mind, no less noble. This is how the hardest routes in the world get climbed - with fixed draws, stick clips, hang-dogging, and rap-bolting.

Sonnie Trotter's support of permadraws is a sign, to me, that the two ethics can peacefully coexist, even in the same climber.

Peter Beal wrote:If locals are truly concerned about safety and aesthetics, they can organize annual draw-cleaning events to clear out the old tat and encourage the removal of draws after climbers are finished climbing.
If we are talking about fixed draws vs. no draws (that ship has long sailed in Rumney), then the aesthetic concern is a valid one. We have to weigh the convenience of having draws against their aesthetic affront. In this case it seems that the vast majority of people who climb the routes that have fixed draws value convenience more than aesthetics.

No climber likes to be called lazy. But some climbers prefer to spend their energy doing harder moves, rather than hanging draws and cleaning (which in the case of some routes is more difficult than actually climbing the route. I watched a strong friend of mine onsight The Caged then struggle for 10 minutes on the clean). I think this is a legitimate, if different, set of priorities from those who insist on the purist, trad-like ethic. And like I said, the fixed-draw ship has already sailed at Rumney. The question is whether to replace them with Permadraws. Let's try to stick to that.
Rob Alexander · · Alta · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 80
E thatcher wrote:Please, before you post on something you feel passionately about, think about how the wording of your statement WILL affect other peoples views of all Rumney climbers. -Erik
Yeah, Rumney locals are starting to come off as total dicks.

Luckily ive visited the place a few times and I know that they are quite nice in person.
Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

Alright, I consulted with the wife on this one. She is all-knowing.

Honey Bear says she doesn't mind if there are perma-draws on a wall but concedes that some people might find them unsightly.

Honey Bear says she is afraid of perma-draws that aren't officially maintained. Meaning that there needs to be an official plan in place to inspect and replace all draws on a regular basis. A vague agreement among a few locals doesn't count ;)

When I asked if it was ok if I brought a Lazy-Boy chair up to the cliff for my convenience, ala the convenience of perma-draws, Honey Bear says that the Lazy-Boy is different because it is much larger than perma-draws and therefore unsightly.

When I asked how perma-drawing 5.12 was ok but not below Honey Bear says since it's more difficult to clip on a 5.12 perma-draws are ok, but I countered with "Well, clipping on 5.8 is difficult for some people". Honey Bear had no answer on that one. Ha!

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610

I almost forget the best part.

Honey Bear says rock climbers are a bunch of whiners. LOL!

Coeus · · a botched genetics experiment · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 40

The points that I am trying to make are

1. This is an international website, maybe you should start a Rumney only website if you do not want outside opinions.

2. This is Forest Service land right? So your arbitrary 5.12 and up policy could conceivably have consequences outside of your area now that there is a precendent.

3. Jake D. and Nick Rhoads have the discussion skills of elementary school children.

Jake D. · · Northeast · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 365
Rob Alexander wrote: Yeah, Rumney locals are starting to come off as total dicks. Luckily ive visited the place a few times and I know that they are quite nice in person.
I find many Mountain Project posters hiding behind Rule #1 to be gutless losers. Haven't met enough that I don't know already to be sure if that changes in real life though.

I guess i've grown up posting on boards without such rules and say what I feel in a direct sort of way. Sugar coating things to be sicky nice is just as bad.
MorganH · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 197
Mike Anderson wrote:Does anyone else but me think those climbtech draws are ugly? Couldn't they at least be painted black or something? Not to mention they are hard to grab and impossible to rodeo clip when my sorry @ss can't get up a route....
I don't think that they're uglier than 10 year old bleached purple petzl draws, and they're much safer. It's not like people are going to magically stop fixing draws.

We equipped a local sport crag with them, and they're actually really easy to grab when on the dog.
Rajiv Ayyangar · · San Francisco, CA · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 220

I can't help but wonder if similar conversations occurred with rap-bolting, red-vs-pinkpointing, and hang-dogging. All have legitimate arguments against them, and all seem silly in retrospect.

There are many aspects of American climbing ethics that are good, noble, and help preserve a beautiful climbing experience. At the same time there are many aspects of our ethics that have historically caused us to fall well behind the Euros in pure difficulty.

A story comes to mind of Alan Watts doing the first ascent of a classic 12 at Smith. He didn't want to pinkpoint the ascent, but his draws were already up, so at each bolt he unclipped the draw, clipped it to his harness, then reclipped it to the bolt and clipped his rope through. My point is that while this seems ridiculous now, in the context of the ethics of the time, it was a necessary step. Not admirable, necessary. And not just to impress other people, but to prove to himself that he could climb in the pure style he desired. I think it is possible to respect traditions like the one Watts was part of, while at the same time acknowledging that ethics and style have changed, especially in Sport.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090

I think Mr. Otey already said he somewhat mistakenly posted here to discuss getting the funds together to replace the fixed draws and didn't mean for it to be a general ethical debate about them. We have already done that in the RCA meeting and took in the full spectrum of opinions and came to a compromise. The discussion here is about like somebody posting asking about collecting funds to get new wheels for a communal car and getting into a debate about the ethics of automobiles and combustion engines.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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