endurance

hey
im getting pumped out on some longer/harder climbs and want to know if anyone has any training pointers on how to up my endurance/ build more strength.

thanks
pat

Pure endurance would be best served by climbing a lot of moderate ground for a long time.

I found a good little power/endurance gym-session that works well - climb 15-20 move bouldering problems that are below your onsight ability (obviously) but still not too easy for you, every 2 minutes for an hour. So you should rack up 30 problems in an hour. As you tire, you'll climb slower and your rests will become shorter, you should be really worked by the end (if you can even finish - if not climb till failure on each problem).

Echoing Kevin, cover as much moderate ground as possible in a single day. Typically two grades or so below your onsight level should do, though that's far from a rule. My goal here is to get a good pump in my forearms but not take them past the spaghetti zone.

Good hydration might also help; not sure what your H20 habits are like but staying hydrated can make a world of difference, especially if you start the day before climbing.

As an aside; working opposing muscles, by doing pushups for example, won't directly alleviate your pump but may keep you from straining muscles while climbing.

Best luck.

Neil Graham had a pretty good article in the climbing rag a few months back. I've seen people get pretty strong climbing both up and down for 30 minutes straight (the guy was high .14 sports climber so he would do mid.13's in this manner) and then rest and then do another 30 minutes climbing.

Personally I do stacks of pitches on rope solo when I don't have a climbing partner. I'll do 12 pitches (and am working my way up to 20-30 pitches and 1 grade below my current redpoint level). What ever you do just work your way up slowly and changee the styles so as not to develop over-use injuries. Myself, I'll do pitches on tips, and then finger cracks, and then ringlocks (but its hardd to find handcracks that are at the level I need, but if there were I'd do them also).

Cardiovascular training will help fight the pump by supplying more oxygen to your muscles. Start by doing low-impact cardio, like riding a bike or an elliptical machine at your gym. Don't do cardio the same day's you workout or climb. Interval training has been proven to be the most effective at improving cardio fitness. You can Google it but I will lay out the basic concept. You want to find your training heart rate; do this by subtracting your age from 220. This number represents the theoretical maximum heart-rate. To train and improve your endurance, you will exercise at 70% of this rate for 6min 80% for 4min and 90% for 1min, then repeat. Do this for 30min 3 times a week. Remember this is just an estimate to get your program started, you will need to fine-tune it based on how well you perform and feel. Of course implementing long climbs that are around 70% of your max will force your body to use different energy pathways. Not just ATP which is primary source of energy while doing hard fast-twitch moves, like bouldering.

Hope it helps.

Ty Harlacker wrote:Cardiovascular training will help fight the pump by supplying more oxygen to your muscles. Start by doing low-impact cardio, like riding a bike or an elliptical machine at your gym. Don't do cardio the same day's you workout or climb. Interval training has been proven to be the most effective at improving cardio fitness.

Interval training to vascularize the forearms will only work if it's the forearms doing the work. Riding a bike will do nothing for forearm endurance unless it leads to losing excess weight and making the forearms work less.
Climbing intervals can take the form of back-to-back routes, 4x4 bouldering, or a Treadwall regime.

grayhghost wrote: Interval training to vascularize the forearms will only work if it's the forearms doing the work. Riding a bike will do nothing for forearm endurance unless it leads to losing excess weight and making the forearms work less. Climbing intervals can take the form of back-to-back routes, 4x4 bouldering, or a Treadwall regime.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to teach you basic health and fitness principles. Look into the role RBC (red-blood cells) play in the human body. Then research how aerobic exercise increases their production. Then research the best training method to improve cardiovascular health (if you are astute you should have a pretty good idea where this is going). You could also Google "blood-doping"; same concept just more extreme and illegal. The idea is to increase your VO2 max, or maximum oxygen saturation of the blood.

I agree somewhat with everyone above has said. There is something to be said for specificity, if you want your forearms to last long, climb a ton just below your current on-sight level as a few people above had said. Running and cross training may help and keep the weight off, and yes it will help your VO2 max. That being said, I was a crappy competitive runner and still run quite a bit. My VO2 max is quite high compared to most people and I can on-sight most V4/V5 boulder problems in Bishop, but will become unbelievably pumped and fail on most 5.11 enduro climbs in the Owens River Gorge. Specificity is everything!

Ty Harlacker wrote: I don't have the time nor the inclination to teach you basic health and fitness principles. Look into the role RBC (red-blood cells) play in the human body. Then research how aerobic exercise increases their production. Then research the best training method to improve cardiovascular health (if you are astute you should have a pretty good idea where this is going). You could also Google "blood-doping"; same concept just more extreme and illegal. The idea is to increase your VO2 max, or maximum oxygen saturation of the blood.

Getting "pumped" as the original poster stated has nothing to do with oxygen saturation in the blood. The feeling of tight forearms comes from the muscles crushing the blood vessels, and not allowing blood to recirculate. Lactic acid and other waste builds up causing pain. Climbing is very unique in this regard because failure comes from an isometric exercise in one of the smallest muscle groups of the body.

While your understanding of cardiovascular health is sound, it has no pertinence to the discussion of why we get "pumped." Training to increase your VO2 max with any leg exercises will only stunt your sport-specific training for climbing by depleting glycogen stores.

elena sera jose wrote:actually cross training such as triathlon will really help climbing endurance and endurance in general easpecially on multi pitch easy to moderate routes. it will also help drop some pounds if needed, and get cardio going.

Yes, I agree. The original poster asked about hard routes and my response was geared towards that. Triathlon will not help the feeling of being "pumped" but it can help for long approaches or very leg-based easy climbing.

elena sera jose wrote:if u train for endurance (sustained heart rate excersises for a period of longer than 20 min) such as tri, your body will learn how to clear lactic acid faster and to store glycogen more effectively. it will take some time but u will see the improvement in "pump". also try to "rest" or "depump" on super easy routes, alternate hard and easy routes. that should help too in the long run to be able to clear lactic acid faster.

No. By training your legs and shoulders you are increasing their vasscularization which allows them to clear lactic acid. Triathlons have no forearm component and will not force these muscles to change. Hard sport climbing, as the OP infers, does not hinge on glycogen stores, unless you have to hike 45 miles to your project.
Your suggestion of alternating hard and easy climbing is a very good interval workout that is directly applicable to climbing.

grayhghost wrote: Climbing is very unique in this regard because failure comes from an isometric exercise in one of the smallest muscle groups of the body. While your understanding of cardiovascular health is sound, it has no pertinence to the discussion of why we get "pumped." Training to increase your VO2 max with any leg exercises will only stunt your sport-specific training for climbing by depleting glycogen stores.

I know my understanding is sound; I hold a bachelor degree is exercise science, and I'm a certified NASM trainer. Isometric means that the muscles are staying static; like holding a dumb-bell without repetitions. Climbing incorporates isometric, eccentric, and concentric contractions. Meaning that you push, pull and hang. I agree with you; sports-specific training is a must. But, just because you use your legs for an exercise doesn't mean that's the only body-part benefiting.

Ty Harlacker wrote: I know my understanding is sound; I hold a bachelor degree is exercise science, and I'm a certified NASM trainer. Isometric means that the muscles are staying static; like holding a dumb-bell without repetitions. Climbing incorporates isometric, eccentric, and concentric contractions. Meaning that you push, pull and hang. I agree with you; sports-specific training is a must. But, just because you use your legs for an exercise doesn't mean that's the only body-part benefiting.

Excellent, then you will find this paper by a PHD exercise physiologist very interesting. The feeling of being "pumped" is not caused by eccentric or concentric contractions of large muscle groups such as the shoulders or "core." While I agree that many systems benefit when doing leg exercises, the forearms (where pump happens) are not one of them. This is why you will find no mention of leg exercises in the blog linked above, they have no benefit in climbing training. I highly recommend Mr. McCloed's book 9 out of 10 if you want to get a better understanding of why climbers fail, it's very different than contemporary research on endurance athletes.

Ty Harlacker wrote: I hold a bachelor degree is exercise science, and I'm a certified NASM trainer.

Thanks for demonstrating the irrelevance of such things with respect to climbing training.

elena sera jose wrote:i still think overall edurance training (tri) will benefit your upper body (swimming 90% upper body) and even biking (holding onto bars and core tension) will benefit your climbing "depump" it will take about a year of training with periodization and consistency of course but u will see results. its not just legs its the whole body that learns how to clear lactic acid. also there is always gonna be some "pump", its just how fast it goes away.

No, this is inccorrect. The body does not "learn" to clear lactic acid as a whole. When specific muscles are worked in an anaerobic environment they physically change and become more vascularized. When doing a triathlon your are not forcing your forearms to adapt. The large muscle groups of the shoulders and back that are taxed during swimming will never be the first to fail in a hard sport climbing situation.

elena sera jose wrote:actually cross training such as triathlon will really help climbing endurance and endurance in general easpecially on multi pitch easy to moderate routes. it will also help drop some pounds if needed, and get cardio going.

Why on earth would you need to train to climb easy or moderate routes?

Ty Harlacker wrote: I know my understanding is sound; I hold a bachelor degree is exercise science, and I'm a certified NASM trainer. Isometric means that the muscles are staying static; like holding a dumb-bell without repetitions. Climbing incorporates isometric, eccentric, and concentric contractions. Meaning that you push, pull and hang. I agree with you; sports-specific training is a must. But, just because you use your legs for an exercise doesn't mean that's the only body-part benefiting.

BS - Think you know everything
MS - learn that you don't know everything
PhD - learn that you don't know anything

Your understanding of exercise science gives ONLY a foundation on which to learn about the principles governing a sport like climbing. Fortunately you are young and have lots of time to experiment and possibly contribute something to wider body of knowledge.

To address the main issue, VO2 max is only relevant in sports that systemically tax the cardiovascular system to its limit. Climbing does not do this. A very modest level of aerobic fitness is quite sufficient to supply the trivial amount of oxygen demanded by the forearms on a pumpy route. The amount of oxygen in the blood is not the issue. The issues relating to a forearm pump in climbing are:

1. Maximum strength (trained by isometric exercises - hangboard, etc) and resisting the urge to overgrip (trained through practice)
2. Local glycogen stores within the forearms (trained through 4x4s, etc.)
3. Vascularity, aka capillarity in the forearm muscles themselves (trained by ARCing, etc), as so patiently explained by the ghost.

General leg-based cardio exercises will not improve these limitations. This is not a wild theory, it is a well established fact among those who specifically study climbing performance.

Finally, the notion that "gripping handlebars" on a bike is somehow beneficial is absurd. Even the most novice cyclist knows that the upper body (really everything but the legs) should be relaxed while riding. In addition, the handlebar grip has little or no application in climbing, and anyone who knows what they are talking about knows that isometric strength is very grip-specific. Swimming may have some benefit to climbing (though it has not been established by any reputable study I know of). However, the repeated practice of submerging your fingers in water for long periods on a regular basis would certainly undermine any training benefit, as your finger skin would be destroyed and unfit for hard rock climbing.

Of course, the knowledge of details like this is only gained through many years of practical experience...not from a university.

elena sera jose wrote:i still think overall edurance training (tri) will benefit your upper body... its not just legs its the whole body that learns how to clear lactic acid. also there is always gonna be some "pump", its just how fast it goes away.

This is a highly unscientific observation based on a sample size of one (i.e. me) but having been on several 3-4 week trips to climb big, snowy mountains in the Andes, Alaska, Canada etc. I've always found that I've returned in excellent aerobic shape and several pounds lighter, but my technical rock-climbing ability was much diminished. And the best way to get back into rock-climbing shape was, well, to get out and do lots of rock-climbing.

Also, while I'm strictly a layperson in these matters, I thought that recent research had questioned that idea that muscle fatigue is due to lactic acid buildup and that one has to train the body to "clear lactic acid". See e.g. Robergs et al, "Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis" (2004), ajpregu.physiology.org/cont…

elena sera jose wrote:I don't have a degree in fittness training neither climbing specific training. All my info is based purely on " doing it" from my own personal experience only. It works for me. As for training on moderate and easy multi pitch routes I'm referring to trad climbing..and tell me you don't use legs on those next time you get "dancing like elvis" lol.

The confusion may be that everyone else is talking about training for hard climbing (sport or trad, mostly .12 and above). Training for long moderate lines and approaches is a different beast.

Admittedly, the OP was not very clear in his goals. It would help if he gave example climbs or grades and some background on his climbing.

Martin le Roux wrote: Also, while I'm strictly a layperson in these matters, I thought that recent research had questioned that idea that muscle fatigue is due to lactic acid buildup and that one has to train the body to "clear lactic acid". See e.g. Robergs et al, "Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis" (2004), ajpregu.physiology.org/cont…

Martin, our understand of the role of lactic acid in muscle fatigue has been evolving for a few years now. While it is likely that the traditional explanation that "fatigue is caused by lactic acid" is probably wrong, to my knowledge, this doesn't change anything about how we should train to avoid fatique.

The bottom line remains the same as far as how to train to be a better climber. To avoid a pump, we should strive to increase vascularity in our forearms in order to prolong aerobic metabolism of ATP. Once pumped, you can hang on longer if you have trained glycolisis (usually through local interval training, i.e. 4x4s, etc.)

My understanding is that lactic acid may still hinder recovery and too much accumulation of lactic acid will kill mitochondria, and thus can lead to injury. This can be avoided/mitigated by properly cooling down after a long training session to flush the muscles of lactic acid.

Mike Anderson wrote:My understanding is that lactic acid may still hinder recovery and too much accumulation of lactic acid will kill mitochondria, and thus can lead to injury. This can be avoided/mitigated by properly cooling down after a long training session to flush the muscles of lactic acid.

I have heard that you can use the big muscle groups of the legs to flush lactic acid out of the forearms but have not read anything to it corroborate it. This could be a good application of 15 minutes of running or biking. I know that massage helps a lot.