Pommel issue with new Nomic / Ergo

I totaly understand the issue at hand here - But let me try and work this out..... As far as I know, these are the most popular Ice tool this year - Retailers can barely keep their inventory stocked - There must be thousands of people just in the United States ALONE who have been using them since January already. And I'm just asking here out of curiosity, but don't you guys think this would have been brought up more than it has already if it was such a major malfunction as everybody's making it out to be?

I realize not everyone who has bought them are going to write reviews online about them, maybe alot of the failures have been kept under the radar, I'm just saying thats it's almost been a whole year these have been in use and there are only a handful of people complaining about the pommel.

Jan? these new models with the adjustable pommel been out that long? if they have, not many folks had them in the field. Good catch, great report guys. I am sure one of us out here owes you huge for catching this early. I am also sure Petzl will get it resolved quickly.

i wonder if its a design flaw or a bad batch

i remember when the link cams came out everyone got excited ... it was only after quite some time when people were discovering they could disintegrate if not placed a very specific way ... the design itself is very specific

aliens on the other hand got used for years .... QC issues caused the problem ....

Actually very few of the new tools have been delivered world wide..hundreds, not thousands to each country.

The new Petzl tools were not available to the public any where until early Oct 2010. It is no wonder with the first ice up we are immediatly seeing this failure. No retailer got very many and what they did, sold quickly.

At the moment it is a fair percentage of the new tools that is showing up damaged already.

I have an opinion on how big that percentage is going to get. This isn't a small issue imo.

At the moment I am still climbing on new Ergos so I haven't lost faith in Petzl completely. How they handle the damaged tools and the base problem will be interesting. So far they have gone way out of their way to make it right. Bravo Petzl!

Well first off I can see an easy fix just go to work on em with a 3 point file or dremell tool.
Make the groves deeper and sharp like the old Nomics .

BUT I shouldn't have to do this on 1200 dollars worth of brand new tools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have not lost faith in Petzl and have no intention's of replacing them with black garbage or any other brand of tool because if that was the case I would have purchased the new Cobras or Fusions or Grivel matrix Tec .

Guess most here are too young to remember the QC issues w the original Cobras when they first came out ie heads popping off or shafts breaking BD to there credit finally fixed the problem and I'm sure Petzl will too but this still sucks for everyone who
Has purchased the new tools and is bound to leave everyone w a sore spot for sometime to come

I had my tools on loan to friends while I was working at my mining job in Nevada (I work 28 days on w/2 weeks off) and my partner n I used both the new Nomics -Ergos really heavily on Lincoln before I left last month .They got quite the workout even spending time in the gym w/ some pretty hardcore climbers so.....

I still see no signs of wear that would freak me out and I have examined both sets completely . I would like to know how the tools in question were honestly used ie
How much dry tooling vs pure ice ect not that this should make any difference on brand spanking new tools I'm just curious that is all.

With the shitty weather for ice this year I would have no problem sending my tools back for replacement or repair .but for now I will continue to use em and check the grips regulary.

One last note the new quarks were using don't have the same pommel grip and therefor don't have the same issues I've warmed up to them the more I use em

I talked to Rick Vance from Petzl today and he eased my worries a bit. He assured me that Petzl will take care of their customers and are in the process of investigating this issue, which is hopefully an isolated case - doesn't sound like it by the way Dane's talking, and word is he knows his shit, but I'm hopeful.

None the less, great customer service and easy communication from Petzl.

Kevin Landolt wrote:I talked to Rick Vance from Petzl today and he eased my worries a bit. He assured me that Petzl will take care of their customers and are in the process of investigating this issue, which is hopefully an isolated case - doesn't sound like it by the way Dane's talking, and word is he knows his shit, but I'm hopeful. None the less, great customer service and easy communication from Petzl.

They are due to ship the new tools out in January. Did he hint as to whether they'd be shipping them out with the current pommels, or delay shipping until they can get new ones made?

Petzl wasn't even aware of the issue until they heard about the tool in question - I'm assuming Dane's. Rick noted that the new design has been tested by hundreds of individuals over the course of a year and the new pommel design has not been an issue. He said he himself climbs on the new Nomics and hasn't observed any damage. Apparently the tool in question shifted grip position from medium to small? Petzl's obviously going to take any potential issues seriously with threads like this one popping up on the web - but they're only at the first stages of investigating (from what I understand) the lone tool in question.

I'm still climbing on my new Ergos with the same new pommel design that now has multiple failures in the UK besides what we've see here.

Rick Vance knows Petzl gear inside and and out and has as much experience on them as anyone. I have no doubt Petzl will take care of us in the long run.

Hundreds of climbers having tested the tools might be a little optimistist. But no questioin they have been climbed on in small numbers since Jan 2010 with no failures seen until just recently.

Can anyone else testify to the comment stating the pommel on the 2010 models are loose even when tightened down all the way?

Jeremy S wrote:Can anyone else testify to the comment stating the pommel on the 2010 models are loose even when tightened down all the way?

Same source, but by design the pommels on the new Ergo and Nomic are suppose to be loose even with the bolt snugged up tightly. I have examined a number of new Nomics, (Petzl demo tools) including the one that failed when it was new and my new Ergo. All had pommels that move slightly when the bolt is tight.

iceman777 wrote:Well first off I can see an easy fix just go to work on em with a 3 point file or dremell tool. Make the groves deeper and sharp like the old Nomics

Don't see that working at all with the new pommel and only maybe working if you are careful and knew what you were doing to fit an old pommel.

Daniel's and my tools were used on really cold, hard ice..no clue how the UK tools that have been damaged or failed in the UK were used.

ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php…

On the bright side the steel epoxy "fix" seems to have worked.

Dane,

Are you sure you haven't just put on a few pounds and exceeded the weight limit of the pommels? ;-).

Petzl has always been on top of any warranty issues I ever had (two that I can remember). I still want a pair of the new nomics. Xmas present to myself if I can find a pair.

PT

Phewww!

Found a brand new pair of the old ones still for sale, had to snatch them up. It sounds like the other UK forum is loaded with damage reports on the new guys, which is unfortunate for any one with them of coarse. Just looks like I'll have to enjoy the old ones until Petzl can fix this problem.

My update on the new Nomics/ Ergos

After several pitches on both ice and plastic in the gym( Im not up to bashing new picks drytooling just yet.).

I can notice no difference and no wear that would freak me out ,yes the pommel is loose even when tight but they haven't loosened anymore than when they were new
And I've let scores of people climb on them.........Sooooooo

Besides the folks overseas who are prob scotish mixed climbers
Has anyone noticed the same failure here?

I would also agree w the glue fix if it wasnt for the fact that I adjust my grips based on the gloves I wear or the size of the meathooks of my friends when they barrow the tools.

"Several pitches, scores of people"?
Not enough data to make any assumptions.

The Nomics that failed origially that I posted about had a total of ten 60 meter steep ice pitches on them when one failed and the other was obviously notched. Those were replaced and went back to Petzl NA this week.

My new Ergos notched but did not fail after the first 10 pitches. I've since epoxied them tight which seems to have solved the wear problem. But the grip size is now fixed.

Same tools went up every thing from WI2 to M7 and WI5+ last weekend in Bozeman in the hands of a dozen different climbers, beginners through experts and 20+ pitches of climbing. The ice was soft and with glued pommels I had no additional wear or movement.

I don't see how the (this) pommel would ever fail on mixed or plastic. As you will never smack the pommel but it will hold 200#s of static weight. But it is easy to see just how they will fail on hard, steep or really cold ice. After all the pommel is suppose to protect your hand...as it gets banged on with every swing. My old Nomics have the scars to prove that theory and have not failed in five hard years of use. If the first notch fails on the NEW pommel design it will be on your hand, protection and support negated enough to make the tools unusable imo.

From what I have been privy to so far, it is our two pair (Daniel's and mine), a few in the UK that have at least notched prematurely if not failed (4 or 5?) and one pair in Finland (may be 2 or 3 more pair in the n. euro country forums but haven't looked again to count) over the last week.

Glad all you folks are happy with Petzl. A friend and I talked to someone at the Petzl booth at the Bozeman Ice Fest, and were not impressed with the response. First he rather aggressively insisted the problem had only occurred with "ONE TOOL!" Then he claimed that the design and materials were identical between the new and old Nomics, disassembled one of each and, despite the obvious differences in BOTH design and materials, kept insisting they were the same! This was the first time I'd had the chance to look at the shaft material of the new tool and it's pretty obviously a cheaper/inferior metal and/or forming process to the 1st Gen Nomics which give all appearance to have been machined out of solid aluminum stock.

If there is any doubt take a look below. The new system is a 3mm stainless single tooth molded into the new pommel with no support past in a single rounded notch in the new 6mm aluminum handle. The old system was several 6mm Delrin teeth cut square and a tight fit in an 6mm aluminum shaft. Doesn't take a materials engineer or a rocket scientist for that matter to see we could have a problem.

More in the posted link on the details and differences between the old and new style Nomics.

coldthistle.blogspot.com/20…

New shaft and pommel cuts on top, the old shaft and teeth below.

Agreed 100% Dane. Actually the metal on the new shaft appears even more different than it appears in your photo however. Much shinier that the old solid aluminum.

Kevin, I'd suspect that the original aluminum over molded grip shaft and the new aluminum over molded grip shaft are the same material (likely 6000 Series aluminum) with the same heat treat. Same with the tubular shaft that the grip and the head are affixed to. I could be wrong on that but not likely Petzl made that sort of change on a simple model upgrade.

I'd think what you noticed in color would be the difference in surface quality of the milled aluminum or even more likely, simple oxidation, and only cosmetic. I have not noticed a difference on the samples of old and new I have seen.

Some of the older Nomics Petzl had as demo tools at Bozeman had seen hard lives and a big file ;) May be not the best tools to make a comparison with.

Dane, I yield to your expertise having only been trained as a chemical engineer rather than in mechanical or materials engineering (though I gotta say the new tool we looked at didn't look like any series 6000 Al that I've ever seen).