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Torn Webbing on a Tri-cam during a fall

RandyR · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 40
PTZ wrote:In my experience the Tricam is not a favorable piece. Only if you have 2 hands to place it and two hands to get it out of the crack. Fine for anchors but in my opinion, they don't do better than a Cam or BD stopper. If it takes me that long to place and I have to use both hands,obviously I am on such easy terrain that I should be running it out or soloing that pitch. I threw mine away years ago. Trying to free them from their placements can take valuable time on a route. They can walk in the crack also, all pieces can walk. If you are a beginner don't listen to your copy of "Freedom of the hills" and stay away from Tricams and Hexes. I cringe at the crag when I hear those hexes making that clanking sound coming down the trail. Hearing that sound means it is time to be somewhere else. Great for anchors but in lead situations where it matters - They are not my vote for gear to have.
First of all, there are places where hexes outperform cams, and other places/conditions where hexes are safe and cams are outright dangerous. Think icy/wet cracks, or climbing on limestone. On columnar andesite and welded tuff, hexes are often superior due to crack geometry. How about in the alpine where they're light, and cheap (if you have to bail from one).

Tricams can be the only thing that works (try sticking a cam in a pocket). On certain types of sandstone, tricams can be the ONLY bomber pro. They're GREAT pieces in the Gunks considering they're small, light, and bomber in horizontals. I don't usually carry tricams, but if I'm going to the Gunks, or am climbing local sandstone, you better believe they're going on my rack.

And, maybe those beginners SHOULD be learning the art of passive gear placement instead of learning to plug cams without thinking.
saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221
Randy Riha wrote:And, maybe those beginners SHOULD be learning the art of passive gear placement instead of learning to plug cams without thinking.
I agree. There's a learning curve associated with all pro, including tricams and hexes. My observation has been that most people who dismiss these haven't actually used them enough to learn how they work. The comment above about needing two hands to place a tricam (!) was a dead giveaway.

Back on topic, I'll be really interested in learning the results of the testing on this failed tricam's webbing. Though I've made many, many tricam placements, I've never fallen on one.

JL
Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

When I see someone with a real cam-centric placement bias I think noob no matter how long they've been climbing.

Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266

I would like to see the tricam head retrieved and have a look at the pin. I have always wondered about the rolled metal they use, if one of the ends of the sheet were left sticking out during manufacture it would be like a knife on sling... built in.

I love tricams and only use 1 hand to place them unless I am at a belay ledge building an anchor. There are plenty of flared runnels on the front range that will only take tricams, some of the famous flatiron runouts can be eliminated with tricams. And dont forget the pink and red tricam sized hueco/pockets, I love those things, try fitting a SLCD in there.

H BL · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 95
saxfiend wrote: I agree. There's a learning curve associated with all pro, including tricams and hexes. My observation has been that most people who dismiss these haven't actually used them enough to learn how they work. The comment above about needing two hands to place a tricam (!) was a dead giveaway. Back on topic, I'll be really interested in learning the results of the testing on this failed tricam's webbing. Though I've made many, many tricam placements, I've never fallen on one. JL
I learned how to lead by placing hexes and nuts. I don't use them anymore and it wasn't till I bought my own rack that I starting buying tri cams. Being from NY I learned how to lead at the Gunks and up in N. Conway.
Living in CO for the last 10 years and tri cams make up most of my rack with cams. (And yes I even own a link cam!) I think tri cams work just as great out here as they do back east. I've taken a small fall on my pink cam and it held. But looking at that photo makes me realize I need to get most of mine reslung as they are old!!!
That being said they can be a bitch for the second to get out!
saxfiend · · Decatur, GA · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,221
Harold Lampasso wrote:That being said they can be a bitch for the second to get out!
I believe "Shawangunks" is the Dutch word for "Land of the Welded Tricam." (though I've never had any trouble cleaning one)

JL
Choss Chasin' · · Torrance, CA · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 25
PTZ wrote:In my experience the Tricam is not a favorable piece. Only if you have 2 hands to place it and two hands to get it out of the crack. Fine for anchors but in my opinion, they don't do better than a Cam or BD stopper. If it takes me that long to place and I have to use both hands,obviously I am on such easy terrain that I should be running it out or soloing that pitch. I threw mine away years ago. Trying to free them from their placements can take valuable time on a route. They can walk in the crack also, all pieces can walk. If you are a beginner don't listen to your copy of "Freedom of the hills" and stay away from Tricams and Hexes. I cringe at the crag when I hear those hexes making that clanking sound coming down the trail. Hearing that sound means it is time to be somewhere else. Great for anchors but in lead situations where it matters - They are not my vote for gear to have.
I learned to lead not that long ago and use tri-cams and hexes frequently. I don't know why everyone thinks hexes and tri-cams are only useful in active (camming) mode, because in passive mode they both can work exceptionally well (many times fitting better than nuts would). Yes in a parallel sided crack I'm gonna reach for my cams. However, I run into many pea pod shaped cracks that take nuts okay and hexes beautifully. If you can't place your passive pro or even a tri-cam in active mode with one hand then you should leave your cams on the ground once in a while and learn some dexterity. It is not difficult to place tri-cams one handed and in many cases I have an easier time placing a tri-cam then a SLCD because of the angles or constrictions of a crack. Why limit yourself to the heaviest, most expensive, most complex pro when there are plenty of options out there. I use all my limbs climbing why not use all my pro options as well?
H BL · · Colorado · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 95
saxfiend wrote: I believe "Shawangunks" is the Dutch word for "Land of the Welded Tricam." (though I've never had any trouble cleaning one) JL
That's funny and true!!! I had a pink one get stuck that my second couldn't get out!!
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145
Rick Blair wrote:I have always wondered about the rolled metal they use, if one of the ends of the sheet were left sticking out during manufacture it would be like a knife on sling... built in.
It's nothing to special, as it's simply an off the shelf coiled roll pin from SPIROL used in the normal manner.
Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Harold Lampasso wrote: That's funny and true!!! I had a pink one get stuck that my second couldn't get out!!
I got that one out the next day and have it on my rack now.

(OK, maybe not yours, but I have plenty of others'.)
Jake D. · · Northeast · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 365
saxfiend wrote: I believe "Shawangunks" is the Dutch word for "Land of the Welded Tricam." (though I've never had any trouble cleaning one) JL
nut tool to the stinger usually does the trick. There is apparently one left on Gelsa from this weekend.. was too dark to go retrieve it once we heard though. booo
Rick Blair · · Denver · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 266
Jake D. wrote: nut tool to the stinger usually does the trick.
I have found the opposite, I hit it with nut tool behind the rails, try to rock/slide them in the same direction the tricam went in. Do you use the tool to push or pull the point?
Mike Morin · · Glen, NH · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 1,355
PTZ wrote:In my experience the Tricam is not a favorable piece. Only if you have 2 hands to place it and two hands to get it out of the crack. Fine for anchors but in my opinion, they don't do better than a Cam or BD stopper. If it takes me that long to place and I have to use both hands,obviously I am on such easy terrain that I should be running it out or soloing that pitch. I threw mine away years ago. Trying to free them from their placements can take valuable time on a route. They can walk in the crack also, all pieces can walk. If you are a beginner don't listen to your copy of "Freedom of the hills" and stay away from Tricams and Hexes. I cringe at the crag when I hear those hexes making that clanking sound coming down the trail. Hearing that sound means it is time to be somewhere else. Great for anchors but in lead situations where it matters - They are not my vote for gear to have.
Wah?! I must say I am perplexed by this statement.
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145
Mike Morin wrote: Wah?! I must say I am perplexed by this statement.
... not to mention being left to wonder what bearing it has upon the OP. ???
Darren Gemoets · · Albany, NY · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 0

Thanks for sharing. The lesson I take from this is about trusting used nylon gear. I always get the slings replaced on used cams (which is why I think most used cams are overpriced once that cost is factored in), and would never buy used slings or tricams. The few bucks saved is just not worth it.

esha · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 10

Ok everyone,

I have ran a series of simple tests to try and determine what the cause of the sling failure was. Upon initial inspection, I noted that the inside of the sling (where the tricam metal bit would have been) was discolored and black. The rest of the sling appeared to be in good condition and not discolored. The point of failure to the naked eye appeared to be more like a cut than a rip. No unusual smells or other discoloration was noted.

The first thing I did (with some colleagues) was take a look at the frayed end of the sling under a microscope. We cut a small piece of the ripped end off and compared the known cut end to the unknown end. It seemed very evident based on my past experience looking at these sorts of things that the sling had indeed ripped, not been cut.

With this evidence we began to analyze the sling to try and determine if any contaminants were evident. Using a variety of tests nothing could be found. A pH analysis also indicated that no acid or caustic substance had contaminated the sling. I am guessing the discoloring of the sling is either dirt or metal oxides from the tricam head.

I guess this leaves more questions than it answers. I would conclude that the sling failure was caused by a rip. I could not determine any contaminants in the sling. The sling was NOT contaminated by acid or base to the best of my knowledge. I may do some further analysis to check for any petroleum type contaminants, but this will prove difficult without an adequate "standard" sling, especially since the nylon is made from, well, petroleum by-products.

Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145

Hey Esha,

I case you've note seen it, BD has a very good 11 page analysis of a rope that severed due to acid exposure a couple years ago. Well worth a read. Link (PDF)

esha · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2010 · Points: 10

I am very sure there were no traces of sulfuric acid on the sling. It was my initial suspicion that H2SO4 was the culprit, so I of course checked for that. If it was sulfuric then it had been completely removed by the time I got a hold of the sling.

Jake D. · · Northeast · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 365
Rick Blair wrote: I have found the opposite, I hit it with nut tool behind the rails, try to rock/slide them in the same direction the tricam went in. Do you use the tool to push or pull the point?
It depends on the placement obviously.. but sting up in a horizontal i tap the sting in a push direction like unseating a nut placement. that usually unsticks it from the rock and then it's easy to get out.

i'm sure i've had to push, pull, pry them in all directions at some point depending on how it is stuck.
Aric Datesman · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 145
esha wrote:I am very sure there were no traces of sulfuric acid on the sling.
Not questioning you on that, merely passing on a good article for reference since it included extreme closeup pics of the nylon both in exposed and unexposed condition.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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