Guides Adding Bolts

mikewhite wrote: Why? Just to hear you rant on the other end? Brian knows better.

+111111

I'm tired of all of the deception coming from you Tony...been down this road before.

My intention wasn't to make this thread all about you. I was wanting to get opinions from all over. It seems most climbers on this thread think that some climbs should remain in their natural state. I don't know of anyone who has critized me for over bolting anything. It always seems to be the other way around.

I started climbing well before power drills. The climbing community at that time had no choice but to learn to place gear, build belays and know how to get off of a climb. This was a very cool experience. I'm simply hoping that climbers in all areas will leave some routes raw and unbolted...it may come in handy, if you find yourself in the bigger, more remote mountains.

I've been ignoring your public rants about "someone" you have had problems with for years. Initials, euphemisms like "guides", and all sorts of pet names for this person have surfaced in your rants.

Some friends recently brought you and your enterage's ranting to my attention and insisted I respond. A couple glasses of wine later... here I am ranting with you. I had to get a new account because I forgot the details of my old one. So here is my 3 years worth of ranting in one thread...

My friends thought it was ironic how folks have responded to your concern about bolts being added to existng routes. When I brought up my concern about folks bolting cracks in LCC I was instantly branded "Mr. Choppy" despite being in a scheduled AMGA class in New Hampshire when the ONE and ONLY incident happened. You bring it up 3 years later and the community is whipped into a chopping frenzy the likes of which I haven't seen in 30+ years of climbing. My friends say 200+ bolts have been chopped on dozens of routes in the Wasatch in the last year. Unbelievable!

I appreciate your stated position even if it is for different reasons (environmental). My point is that you are making it personal with your passive aggressive public attacks. Most non-Wasatch folks don't know who you are talking about. But its clear to Wasatch locals you are upset with one person. You say the thread is not about me. I never suggested it was. I don't know who you have a personal problem with. Maybe its me. Maybe its someone else. But its clear you have a personal problem with one person and you believe they're a guide. I suggest you contact them and resolve it privately like an adult.

REALITY CHECK:
The west slab on the north face of Mount Olympus is 2,000 feet wide and 2,000 feet high. I think there is room for James (or anyone else) to put a second route on it in whatever style they want without it destroying the area. We used to call that "freedom of the hills".

Guides...(glass #3)
I've climbed the west slabs a dozen times and a dozen different ways, roped and ropeless, but I've never taken a client on it. You need a permit to do that. Schoolroom and unpublished routes on the Black Peeler are my favorite places to take clients. Anyone can teach people to climb there and you don't need a permit. Incidentally, still no bolted stations there and probably never will be. You must think guides are idiots. If I taught people to drive cars I wouldn't take them out on the lake either.

In mountainproject speak...
+1 for stopping the passive aggressive attacks and dealing with your issues more maturely. LOL You are 50-something years old. For God's sake, try communicating with people directly, one-on-one, man to man, and without the internet fan club. And try being kinder. You will live longer.

Still waiting on your suggestion on what you think should be done about all those anchors added to trad routes. But I doubt you will address that since that was never what this thread was really about anyway.

As for backgrounds...
Believe it or not I may have started climbing before you. Chances are good you bought your power drill before I even owned a hand drill. I still wear a swami belt on low angle routes. The place I learned to climb has over 500 routes, but there were only 3 bolts there in 1972... and there aren't that many more there today. I recall sitting around the fire and hearing my mentors talk about how the whole place had gone to hell when bolt #4 was placed. Climbers rolled other climber's cars off the side of cliffs for tainting the sanctity of the area by using spring-loaded cams. Folks used to talk about spring-loaded cams the way you talk about bolted stations. It was mostly alot of egoic posturing if you ask me. So it seems we came from similar places, but learned different lessons.

I trust the mountains to teach people its lessons quickly enough without my prodding. I know most folks' biggest adventure will be toproping an 80 foot wall.... and I'm fine with that. I don't feel the need to force them to learn more than they want to. I didn't always feel that way, but I do now. I've been ridiculed for hand drilling hard X-rated routes on lead and power drilling easy clip ups on rappel. I know none of the ridicule has anything to do with me and everything to do with people posturing themselves. They momentarily feel better when they insult someone for being different than them. It is especially obvious when they claim to know why people do what they do. If someone places more bolts it is because they're a guide and did it for money. If someone places less bolts they are full of themselves. People will claim whatever serves their purposes to claim. The truth is none of us know why people do what they do and anyone who claims to know is full of themselves.

Access, visual impacts and environmental issues are of greater concern to me than what anyone but God thinks of me or their ego. So your empty accusations are meaningless to me, Brian.

The irony is that you and I have been putting up routes in Little Cottonwood Canyon in pretty similar style for almost 20 years. I sincerely hope one day you drop the internet ax and start being friendly.

This thread is funny

Wow!

Flashback to a couple of years ago. I completely understand what Mr. Smoot is saying. It seems like the Wasatch has developed a "tunnel" vision when it comes to finishing a pitch or route. When the climbing stops... "Where's the bolted anchor?" Whether a bolted anchor is necessary, is a giant can or worms. I left the Wasatch for almost ten years and after my return, was quite surprised at the amount of bolts sprouting everywhere.

I think what Mr. Smoot it trying to do is bring awareness to the amount of anchors being added. Yes, we can go back in the past to attempt to justify current actions, but times have changed. In the past, there weren't multiple "climbers" toting power drills and easily available cheap hardware. With the amount of "climbers" drilling holes, it is simply more obvious and concerning than yesteryear. I include myself in this group as I have drilled my share of holes.

Subjects such as this have made me think about whether the holes I've drilled are actually necessary. I can think of two bolted belays in which I've drilled and shouldn't have. At the time, I thought they were needed, but in hindsight I made a mistake. I plan on moving forward and strive to see natural gear on any new routes I want to climb. Hopefully I can get up there, swallow my "climber pride" and fix my mistakes.

I can see exactly what Mr. Smoot is seeing and aggree with what he has to say. I support all anchor removal of the West Slabs. I also support the prevention of anchors on routes like Steorts, Schoolroom, or the Sundial for example.

Because something has been done in the past, doesn't justify it in the present.

Lets not add anchors to existing routes unless the current anchor has changed preventing use i.e. eroision, decay, rock fall, etc.

Just my two cents,

TDA

why would anyone believe anyone who went to jail for lying?

Quoted for posterity. Old habits die hard.

Tony Calderone wrote:I've been ignoring your public rants about "someone" you have had problems with for years. Initials, euphemisms like "guides", and all sorts of pet names for this person have surfaced in your rants. Some friends recently brought you and your enterage's ranting to my attention and insisted I respond. A couple glasses of wine later... here I am ranting with you. I had to get a new account because I forgot the details of my old one. So here is my 3 years worth of ranting in one thread... My friends thought it was ironic how folks have responded to your concern about bolts being added to existng routes. When I brought up my concern about folks bolting cracks in LCC I was instantly branded "Mr. Choppy" despite being in a scheduled AMGA class in New Hampshire when the ONE and ONLY incident happened. You bring it up 3 years later and the community is whipped into a chopping frenzy the likes of which I haven't seen in 30+ years of climbing. My friends say 200+ bolts have been chopped on dozens of routes in the Wasatch in the last year. Unbelievable! I appreciate your stated position even if it is for different reasons (environmental). My point is that you are making it personal with your passive aggressive public attacks. Most non-Wasatch folks don't know who you are talking about. But its clear to Wasatch locals you are upset with one person. You say the thread is not about me. I never suggested it was. I don't know who you have a personal problem with. Maybe its me. Maybe its someone else. But its clear you have a personal problem with one person and you believe they're a guide. I suggest you contact them and resolve it privately like an adult. REALITY CHECK: The west slab on the north face of Mount Olympus is 2,000 feet wide and 2,000 feet high. I think there is room for James (or anyone else) to put a second route on it in whatever style they want without it destroying the area. We used to call that "freedom of the hills". Guides...(glass #3) I've climbed the west slabs a dozen times and a dozen different ways, roped and ropeless, but I've never taken a client on it. You need a permit to do that. Schoolroom and unpublished routes on the Black Peeler are my favorite places to take clients. Anyone can teach people to climb there and you don't need a permit. Incidentally, still no bolted stations there and probably never will be. You must think guides are idiots. If I taught people to drive cars I wouldn't take them out on the lake either. In mountainproject speak... +1 for stopping the passive aggressive attacks and dealing with your issues more maturely. LOL You are 50-something years old. For God's sake, try communicating with people directly, one-on-one, man to man, and without the internet fan club. And try being kinder. You will live longer. Still waiting on your suggestion on what you think should be done about all those anchors added to trad routes. But I doubt you will address that since that was never what this thread was really about anyway. As for backgrounds... Believe it or not I may have started climbing before you. Chances are good you bought your power drill before I even owned a hand drill. I still wear a swami belt on low angle routes. The place I learned to climb has over 500 routes, but there were only 3 bolts there in 1972... and there aren't that many more there today. I recall sitting around the fire and hearing my mentors talk about how the whole place had gone to hell when bolt #4 was placed. Climbers rolled other climber's cars off the side of cliffs for tainting the sanctity of the area by using spring-loaded cams. Folks used to talk about spring-loaded cams the way you talk about bolted stations. It was mostly alot of egoic posturing if you ask me. So it seems we came from similar places, but learned different lessons. I trust the mountains to teach people its lessons quickly enough without my prodding. I know most folks' biggest adventure will be toproping an 80 foot wall.... and I'm fine with that. I don't feel the need to force them to learn more than they want to. I didn't always feel that way, but I do now. I've been ridiculed for hand drilling hard X-rated routes on lead and power drilling easy clip ups on rappel. I know none of the ridicule has anything to do with me and everything to do with people posturing themselves. They momentarily feel better when they insult someone for being different than them. It is especially obvious when they claim to know why people do what they do. If someone places more bolts it is because they're a guide and did it for money. If someone places less bolts they are full of themselves. People will claim whatever serves their purposes to claim. The truth is none of us know why people do what they do and anyone who claims to know is full of themselves. Access, visual impacts and environmental issues are of greater concern to me than what anyone but God thinks of me or their ego. So your empty accusations are meaningless to me, Brian. The irony is that you and I have been putting up routes in Little Cottonwood Canyon in pretty similar style for almost 20 years. I sincerely hope one day you drop the internet ax and start being friendly.

I wholeheartedly agree that ranting, name calling etc on the internet is sometimes like beating your head against a wall, but I ask this, where else, in what other forum can dialogue be had between such a vast community of people concerned about the same things? sure I can call someone "privately" and listen to their bullshit justifications, but the buck stops there, no other opinions could be expressed. I would be honored to be in the same room with Bsmoot, and among generations of passionate climbers striving to keep the core values of climbing alive, trying to come to a consensus on the way to proceed. The fact is where is this going to happen? I do think it would be ideal but its not entirely feasible without a massive cooperative effort.

Im not sure this was intended to be solely about the west slabs, but at this point I would say that 95% of the people I have spoken with or expressed an opinion on the subject support the removal of the rap stations.

Tony, I tried to speak with you over Private PM's about this particular subject and you would have none of it, calling for respect and immediately becoming defensive, understandably. I have been climbing for 3 years now and have bumped into many prestigious climbers both of the new generation and old, most have shared the same thoughts on the ethics of bolts and bolting. You have seemed to do things of your own accord, basically giving the finger to long established ethics and your fellow climbers and climbing community. You have pissed a lot of people off, we are all solely responsible for our own reputations.

I am a relative newcomer to the sport but feel a deep respect for the traditional way of climbing, bold, sans bolts, real, in your face, a form of climbing that makes you feel alive. I do not support making all climbs "accessible" and safe for any gym gumby that wants to give it a go. If safe predictable climbing is your thing, go to some sport crag, go climb a well protected crack, dont go get on a PG13, R, or X rated line and complain that its too dangerous or that it needs a bolt at the crux.. I think it could be said that the people who add bolts to such lines have not entirely mastered their mental game and probably never will, especially if all of the hard or scary lines are dumbed down by adding bolts.

I love the fact that each climb has a character of its own, something that makes it memorable, would you remember Intensive Care in LCC with such intensity if it hadnt made your butthole pucker?

Im going off on a tangent, this is about guides and bolts.
my .02.

this seems to have become a regional discussion. but, to add one perspective on the broader issue, i think there's a difference between adding bolts to a run out section of a climb and adding rap-station bolts at the belays of a climb. i don't support the former. i don't have any problem with the latter.

all this talk about taking away from the boldness of a climb doesn't make any sense to me. are we talking about climbs where the sketchiest/scariest aspect of the climb is placing gear to build an anchor and/or rap station?

if you've gotten to the belay/rap station, you've successfully made it past whatever the climb has to throw at you. rap stations may not be necessary but their impact on the environment and asthetic seems pretty trivial to me. and, in the event of weather that forces you to get off the rock quickly, they're a great way to do so safely and without having to leave gear.

This conversation is about the West Slabs, Tony C. adding anchor stations and bolts.

Now that we have that cleared up I'll go ahead and lay out some facts:

-The West slabs have been climbed for many years on gear. It's a moderate, but beautiful climb with fun exposure.

-Rappelling the route is not the best way to get down. Whether using anchor stations or trees, the walkoff is a far better and safer descent.

-There are(were) at least 19 anchor stations that have been added to the face of the West Slabs

-Some of those anchor stations are within 30 feet of each other.

-A lot of those anchor stations have(had) Tony C's engravings on them.

-I have personally removed at least six of those stations.

Now some opinions:

Bolted belay stations are certainly less of an eyesore than trees slung with old webbing. When placed correctly, they are very low-impact and also provide a convenience factor to the climbing we all do. I appreciate having anchors at the top of routes that require rappel descents or provide no other option for belay.

It's my opinion that a line of anchor stations up the West Slabs would be acceptable to, or at least tolerated by, a majority of those involved in this debate. That is assuming that they are 30 or so meters apart, in a line, and provide a reasonable escape for those unable to finish the route.

The small number of legitimate guiding services in the Wasatch range do not warrant a 2nd or a 3rd line of bolted belay stations to make their jobs easier. It is also unacceptable that one guide service (legitimate or not) places their own anchors because they don't want to use the existing anchors.

The ridiculous number of bolts on the slabs has once again polarized the Wasatch climbing community. I choose to join the conservative side and fight against the bolting of classic lines. I don't feel the need to give in to the demands of those who pursue convenience climbing and unethical guiding - especially when they choose to make no concessions of their own.

Tony, go pull your bolts from the Slabs. They are not needed or wanted. The time has come for you to exit the bolting scene. It only causes problems.

I think there are a few different directions this has been going Dweller. I agree about the rap stations except when they are peppered onto a face, some less than 30 feet from the next. I think were talking about the lack of accountability in the placement of bolts by guides and other parties.

+1 for Tony removing his own bolts... The epoxy i use to fill your holes is getting expensive.

Pat Erley wrote:You guys are such elitists ... bolts just make it so everyone can climb a route, not just the ones who can afford a trad rack. There are so many great routes out there that I cant do because I can only afford a couple quick draws, but when I go to shelf road I can feel free again. Take the compressor route for example, lots of bolts, very safe and put up in great style ... Just like ottos route, but it could still use a few extra bolts, those pins are scarrry!

You're absolutely right. Let's make every route a via ferrata, so we would need a rack at all. And while we're at it, let's install winches and bossons chairs on those cables so it just won't be those "elitists" with legs muscles and gumption who can climb them. They way, even the poorest, laziest, most ambivalent of us can enjoy "rock climbing", not just those preachy elists.

I would wager that fat dad just fed a troll in the above post???

JPVallone wrote:I would wager that fat dad just fed a troll in the above post???

Yeah, know I was kind of thinking that, but given some of the newer climbers you meet these days, one can't be sure.

Fat Dad,
How did we get from bolted stations to winches and bossons chairs?
Keep that up and you will be as bad as me. And by the way, that's pretty bad!

You see, Adam, they ignore my posts as well.

I would offer up my home to meet if people wanted to get together to discuss things. I have been thinking about this for awhile and think that having a monthly BBQ or pot-luck could be a great way for us to look out for the Wasatch better. It could be open to any and all who want to show up. It would give us a chance to rub elbows with other climbers some of who (I)we don't know except from reading the online forums. I could provide little name stickers and we could write our user names on them if that would help.
Dallen

Great idea clay.

I tried years ago to work this out, with tony and others.
I dont think it is possible, because somone will agree with the group and then just do whatever the fuck they want.

pm sent give me a call.

I would love to have a civil meeting about this. But there would only be 3 people there.

Damn guides are ruining everything for everyone

Are you Joe Vallone of ski fame from yesteryear turned guide? hucking 1080's onto hardpack and showing everyone how wasted you could get?

if i were just slightly more mischievous i would go put up a bunch of bolts with tony's name inscribed on 'em just to fuel this fire.