Black Diamond Cams....meh

I personally like Metolius. They grip really nicely and are lighter than BD. Also made in the US.

I think BD is just fine; obviously any cam works, and lots of people swear by BD. For me the "smooth trigger pull" equates to some of the weakest cam springs on the market, which is about the only negative thing I have to say about them. Otherwise, they are nice cams. Oh, I'm also turned off by the fact that they moved manufacturing to China.

The best thing to do is get used to using as many different types of cams as you can, because invariably you'll be climbing on someone else's rack; proficiency across cam brands rules.

Sergio P wrote:Hands down, with out debate the greatest cam in the world is the one you like best. Same goes for shoes, harness, nuts, helmets, chalk, biners and beer.

100% disagree - Seems to be a big problem with all the "open minded" people I meet these days. They think that their personal preference makes something the best. Education, listening, being open to new ideas will take you a lot further in life.

Preferences
I've heard this at least 100 times, "Metolius is really good in the small sizes, but after red, they suck." I jumped on this paradigm for a while, and then one day at IC a friend (with much more experience than me) asked me if he could borrow my light blue metolius. Said it fit better on this route. It made me rethink what I had always been told. Now I use both my big Metolius and my BDs. I haven't gotten used to the BDs in the smaller sizes (<.75)

I sold my trango cams because of personal preference and some outside opinion. Lots of people are comfortable on Aliens, but I've seen popped heads and inverted cams, so education trumps preference there. I can't say i've placed a lot of friends. I don't own any and my friends don't have friends either.

range finders

As far as the range finders on Metolius go, they can be useful, but constant cam angles should mean that the cam will hold at 10%-90% retraction. I generally place in the green/yellow range.

Made in the USA
BD manufactures most of the components that go into the camalots here in the USA. Some parts do come from China. All of the assembly now takes place in China. I'm not entirely sure, but I'd guess that there are components of Metolius cams that come from outside the US (slings, plastic, wires, etc.) Find me the guy, hippie or redneck that doesn't have some china in him, I dare you.

Odds and Ends

I've never had a major problem with BD cams walking due to their soft springs. I'm pretty careful about slinging my gear correctly. I guess the walking problem could be claimed about metolius because of the U-stems. My trangos seemed to walk a lot.

I'm pretty sure you can manipulate metolius cams on one side or the other. Maybe not as much as BD, but i'm sitting here playing with one, and thinking about times i've had to clean stuck cams, and I don't think that was ever a major issue. If you're placing cams with one side way more retracted than the other, BD probably wins. However, if you fall on said cams, you might end up being the real loser. Interesting thought. (my preference is to run it out rather than place more gear in shitty placements)

yawn . . . this Benadryl makes me loopy.

I am a big fan of BD c4's. I have seen a newer BD cam in an ideal placement fail and the cam lobes bent as a result. Just something to keep in mind. They are not perfect.

Anyways I have yet to see an ice screw fail. Put those spring thingys away, ice season is coming up!! Cant wait.

Matt Toensing wrote:I am a big fan of BD c4's. I have seen a newer BD cam in an ideal placement fail and the cam lobes bent as a result. Just something to keep in mind. They are not perfect.

Yeah... that was weird.

Price wrote:I'm pretty sure you can manipulate metolius cams on one side or the other. Maybe not as much as BD, but i'm sitting here playing with one, and thinking about times i've had to clean stuck cams, and I don't think that was ever a major issue. If you're placing cams with one side way more retracted than the other, BD probably wins. However, if you fall on said cams, you might end up being the real loser. Interesting thought. (my preference is to run it out rather than place more gear in shitty placements) yawn . . . this Benadryl makes me loopy.

Its more in situations where you have to retract the cam almost all the way to get it into or out of the placement. With Metolius cams, I've consistently had to pull on the trigger wires with a nut tool to get one side to move. Meanwhile, I could just pull on one side of the trigger on a friend for the same effect. I don't have a U-stem in front of me, but the punchline is that with the trigger mounted at two points (as opposed to just one), you limit the range of motion that is not parallel to the stem.

Bob Packwood wrote:Who cares? I mean really. Who-the-fuck-cares?

I guess Tdog does. Must have lost his job to the Chinese. "they took his jerb!!"

"they took his jerb!!" X2 just cause i like that episode. I climb on c4's 1-4 and mastercams 1-5 and like them both alot, but im a noob so what the hell do i know.

Price wrote: I've heard this at least 100 times, "Metolius is really good in the small sizes, but after red, they suck." I jumped on this paradigm for a while...

It's really not so much a paradigm as it is an ethos.

Bd cams are more common so its easier to share gear. Its also a lot easier to get a prodeal with bd. I like bd down to .5 but hate the c3's. Ill never own a small bd cam. Tcus rock, the red power cam is awesome, and I like the mastercams. Not a big fan of the u stem in larger sizes though.

Other than the c3 comment I'd day that most of my opinions are pretty common.

Bob Packwood wrote:Who cares? I mean really. Who-the-fuck-cares?

Nice one Bob. Best comment of the entire thread. Maybe the most useful, too. It made me feel like a dork for commenting on this one in the first place.

It is kinda funny that since BD cams have more stuff in them (much like an off road high clearance vehicle with boat and bass fishing live well), that they are a more redneck cam; therefore, it should serve, there are now rednecks in China.

And really, who doesn't care about what rednecks are doing to our environment?

Dang it, son, stop whining and just blow stuff up
Hell ya, paw, hand me that Bud would ya

Alright Bob and Greg, although this issue isn't nearly as important access, style, or people bolting groin bolts in beautiful rock, I really do enjoy hearing peoples preferences on gear. It's fun to talk about the stuff that saves my life over and over again.

Anyways, the rangefinder doesn't actually help in placement, but it is like a second opinion. The cam looks back at my inquisitive eye and says, "Hey, I like this spot. It feels pretty good!" Just a little extra mental pro I guess.

I have yet to have a stuck cam issue, so maybe once I do my opinion will change in regards to the trigger.

And here is a question, doesn't the trigger being mounted in two points help keep the placements better? I was under the impression that two lobes being expanded differently is a bad thing. The metolius trigger mostly retracts the lobes equally. It just seems like that coin has two sides, just like everything else I like about my shiny babies.

HAPPY SENDTEMBER!

Held one of the Dragon's the other day...they were pretty light!! Nice cam, but it did seem shorter in length than a C4

used dragons ... with the sling its about the same as a camalot ... with it extended it was about 2 inches longer

nice cams ...

Scott McMahon wrote:Held one of the Dragon's the other day...they were pretty light!! Nice cam, but it did seem shorter in length than a C4

If you hold them side by side they are the same. That is, from the place where your thumb goes to the lobes, on both. C4's have a loop, Draggons don't. That is the difference in length.

Josh Olson wrote:. And here is a question, doesn't the trigger being mounted in two points help keep the placements better? I was under the impression that two lobes being expanded differently is a bad thing. The metolius trigger mostly retracts the lobes equally.

The triggers themselves have nothing to do with the cams stability.

I'm a fan of the "friends" but I do like the range of Camalots. BD's latest version may finally have me interested in buying a set.

The C4 BD action can't be beat!, hands down.

The C3's are short and seem to walk "very good".

Thats why I switch over to the metolius master cam at 1,0,00.

BD/6-.3 + Master cam/1-00 (best rack by far)

((Ive never used the trango max cams))

Heh. I love BD cams. Good to see an anti-thread though. I could see falling in love with Metolius cams, their gear is built like a brick shit-house.

One problem is I don't like BD's product return so far. I screwed up a C3 removing it from a tight squeeze and they're going to charge me trigger wire repair (only $10) plus return shipping ($12), not to mention I have to pay for shipping to them. It's going to add up near the $30 mark, I fear. On a cam that's overpriced to begin with! The fact I just bootied that exact same size of C3 is making it harder to want to send in (anybody in the market for a cam that needs some repair? send me an email). Oppose this to OP whose yellow link cam just bust a trigger wire and who are going to fix it and investigate the failure free (at least, they just told me to send it in so far). Long story short, I screw up trigger wires.

Zeke wrote:Heh. I love BD cams. Good to see an anti-thread though. I could see falling in love with Metolius cams, their gear is built like a brick shit-house. One problem is I don't like BD's product return so far. I screwed up a C3 removing it from a tight squeeze and they're going to charge me trigger wire repair (only $10) plus return shipping ($12), not to mention I have to pay for shipping to them. It's going to add up near the $30 mark, I fear. On a cam that's overpriced to begin with! The fact I just bootied that exact same size of C3 is making it harder to want to send in (anybody in the market for a cam that needs some repair? send me an email). Oppose this to OP whose yellow link cam just bust a trigger wire and who are going to fix it and investigate the failure free (at least, they just told me to send it in so far). Long story short, I screw up trigger wires.

BD's shipping charges are LAME!! It costs you almost 2x as much to have the trigger repair kit sent to you, than it costs to buy the kit!! WTF?? Drop it in an evelope!!