.

JLP wrote: I don't see this route in any of my guidebooks either.

We don't have access to the DDC "secret guidebook"

j fassett wrote: We don't have access to the DDC "secret guidebook"

We don't need access. The bolts make it clear that the line has already been climbed.

Eric Rhicard wrote: If every route in the stronghold was done this way and there were no climbs that everyone could safely do then it would be selfish. That is not the case. Not very many folks have enjoyed the Bachar/Yerian perhaps we should bolt that down to our level Mike. What do you think Mike? Should we really bolt every climb on earth so that everyone can climb it safely? Just a question Mike?

OK, I'll clarify. I was only stating a definition for the term selfish. Climbers (especially FAs) are selfish. Selfish means you don't want to share with everyone. I never said let's go bolt everything. Trying to state that climbing a rock then laying claim to it and telling people you have to climb it my way is selfish. Everyone needs to own up to the fact they are selfish when it comes to climbing. I admit I am. It's in the nature of men (men not women) to be the biggest baddest whatever it is they are doing. Pay attention the next time your at the crag. The ego goo is so thick it stinks. I don't think we should bolt everything out there but I also don't get all bent out of shape over it. Like I said I've climbed past plenty of bolts without clipping them and never got upset about them being there.

I'm with ya there Eric, and I agree with your point. Just quoting JLP and saying, all that route information is out there correct?
JF

+1 Mike

See you soon - Its almost Cochise Season again...

The fact of the matter is that most of the bolting and routes that go on in southeren AZ. are agreed upon in consensus and done by mostly experienced developers. Bolting should be looked at with a little less backlash and viewed more as a job well done, and much thanks to those who have been generous in supplying and developing the true nature of fixed hardware climbs in the surronding environs for the future to come. In this particular case I am guessing that an experienced developer added something, that he should have asked the FA first. I just hate to see the sport engraining this backlash that I mentioned earlier. Especially when the matter will be addressed and solved on anything but a forum that can turn ugly too fast. In any case a good post and glad to see it was brought to light.

Crag Dweller wrote: How is adding a bolt to compensate for a lack of mental strength any different than gluing on a hold to compensate for a lack of physical strength? And, I say all that having walked away from my fair share of climbs because of run outs that made me nervous. I'll add a disclaimer to say that I think bolts should be placed to make a route safe. If bolt placement creates the potential for a dangerous or deadly fall and placing gear isn't an option, I'm all for adding bolts...after putting in effort to contact the FA.

John Maguire wrote:Does this seem like a huge contradiction to anyone else?

I can see how that may've seemed contradictory. I shouldn't have said, "I'm all for adding bolts." That's not true.

The point I was trying to make is that there's a difference between a spicey climb and an X-rated climb. An X-rated trad climb is one thing but I don't think the potential for a deadly ground fall should intentionally be created through bolt placement. When that happens, I think the FA should be open to the addition of a bolt. But, if s/he isn't I don't think it's right to add one.

Mike Diesen wrote: Climbers (especially FAs) are selfish...Everyone needs to own up to the fact they are selfish when it comes to climbing. I admit I am. It's in the nature of men (men not women) to be the biggest baddest whatever it is they are doing. Pay attention the next time your at the crag. The ego goo is so thick it stinks.

While I know this attitude does exist in climbing (and in life), it is a broad generalization to say all climbers (especially FA's) are selfish about climbing. I have climbed with a few folks in AZ and that have developed areas & routes and can say that they are the exact opposite of what you describe. They are awesome representatives of our community: enthusiastic, encouraging of all climbers (not just those who climb as hard as they), and anything but selfish or ego-driven. But that's just my experience...I tend to avoid people/places with bad vibes :)

Eric Rhicard wrote:All I will SAy on this subject is that adding a bolt to this route was an ayeror. In fact this whole thing is a comedy of ayerors. That is trademarked by the way. It isn't like bolting this thing in a spicy manner deprived less bold climbers from climbing any of 300 other climbs bolted in just the opposite manner, a number of which are mine. I have done this boulder then finished on another persons route. Lets just SAy I thought this was the start of the less bold persons route. I can't SAy for sure he added a bolt to Daves route but that third bolt looks a lot like the bolts on the rest of the safely bolted route. And I can SAy for certain that this other person has been known to chop, move, and generally f*%# with others routes. There is a lot to be said for walking away from a climb if you don't have the mental ability to keep it together, or the willingness to risk injury. I love climbs like that. I like that there are folks out there that can do what I am not brave enough to do. I would SAy the person that added the bolt should be brave enough to own his/her actions. Just SAying.

You are a MEGA tool EFR for posting this comment.

I am a avid supporter of polite discussion on any topic, so I am slightly embarrassed about the above comment, but since no one else is saying anything and just posting "LOL" and "Classic" or just straight up ignoring the post, I will be the whipping boy and say something about it.

Before I get lectured on who you are and your resume, I know. You have done great things for the climbing community. So thank you for all your years of work. BUT all this work does not warrant you to able to make comments like above. Its a real shame that you don't have more control over yourself.

Geir H. you are so backwards its not even funny. I remember the days when you where talking ALL kinds of trash about EFR. I am sure you don't remember me, but the first day I went climbing was with you (years ago) and a large group of others, but I specifically remember you and how much garbage you spoke about EFR. One moment you hate EFR then the next you support ANYTHING he says. If I was EFR I would keep your friendship at arms length since you are clearly a flip flopper.

I am sure I will get the stink eye for all of this, but it is well worth it.

People, please don't let other people throw each other under the buss when no proof has even been established. I am sure if you were the one being thrown under the buss you would wish someone would stick up for you. I have meet SA enough times to count on one hand (not many times), so I am not vouching for his person. I am only saying the EFR has lashed out with NO PROOF or anything of substance. If EFR has any proof that has validity to it, then I will apologize for these comments. For the record old stories of "Once he did.." and "I have know him for this many years and.." are all stories and not proof.

Daved, sorry is someone has ruined your route. Its a sick shame. You and your routes should be treated with more respect then that.

Man I would love to walk around your crag with a hilti drill hanging from my harness. I'd guarantee you 75% of the people bitching about this on the internet wouldn't have the balls to question my intentions. But why else would there be a drill hanging from my harness?....maybe I like to train with extra weight.

Talk about beating a dead horse with a stick. Ok we get it, it was wrong we've heard every aspect possible. Chop it, leave it, let the FA'er decide and move on. Its starting to sound like the Sport vs. Trad debate. Let's move on

RockinOut wrote: Talk about beating a dead horse with a stick. Ok we get it, it was wrong we've heard every aspect possible. Chop it, leave it, let the FA'er decide and move on.

Seriously!? If you are so tired of reading about it, then why the hell do you keep clicking on the dam thread? Makes NO sense!

RockinOut wrote: Its starting to sound like the Sport vs. Trad debate. Let's move on

No it's not.

Red wrote: No it's not.

Are you kidding? You've got people argueing for and against it, for something that can't get solved over the internet. I see the similarity.
Chances are the person who slapped the bolt up there probably never heard of MP.com, let alone follows this thread. Even if you do find the culprit what can you do? Ban him from the rock? Take away his rope? Break his arm? C'mon now let's be real.

back again huh? you must be really tired of this thread!

This thread is about an established route being altered. Not a sport vs. trad debate. Huge difference.

Red wrote:This thread is about an established route being altered. Not a sport vs. trad debate. Huge difference.

I follow the forums I post in, I don't post and then just walk away. Obviously, you read what you wanted to read in my posting. I never said this was turning into the sport vs. Trad debate. I said its starting to SOUND like the sport vs trad debate....meaning there's no end in sight for the debate and the dead horse is being beaten with a stick. How many routes have bolts added to them by people who don't have permission of the FA'er? The climbing community is much larger than MP.com....its just that 1 guy vented on here about someone vandalizing his line.

Back on topic (sort of).... I hear more and more younger (and presumeably gym-raised) climbers say "The FA does not own the rock". And I have to admit, technically they are right. It's a bit jarring to us old-timers, but I think we'd better get used to it.

soapcentral.com/soapcentral…

Andrew Haag wrote: Dear Dan M. Sealer You threw Geir under the bus in the same comment that you scolded Eric for throwing Scott under the bus. There is validity to what you are saying how ever that is a great indication that you are no better than the rest of us!

What I said is backed up by eye witness proof. I was there when Geir talk all his trash about EFR. I am not saying "I think he talked trash" or "He might have" or even "I heard he talk.." It was,I WAS THERE.

My points about Geir are backed by eye witness accounts. Geir's actions alone threw him under the bus. I just explained what I heard and how I wouldn't (if I was EFR) want a person to be my friend that talked trash behind my back one day and then tried to buddy buddy with me the next.

Also, note how Geir said "LOL" and "Classic" about EFR comment before even asking questions like; "Do you have any real info EFR?" or "EFR were you there during this incident?" or even "EFR has someone else told you information, if so who and what did they say?"

He just hoped on the bandwagon, no questions asked. If that was SA saying this about EFR I highly doubt there would be a "LOL" or "Classic" Comment from Geir then. Although I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Andrew, I respect you and your opinions and thank you for sharing. But I think if you re-read my original post you will find I made no assumption. All I gave are facts of what I heard and what I think about those facts (In regards to Geir).

I'm not trying to join the cast of this melodrama but I thought it was worth pointing out that 'throwing someone under the bus' means simply that you've exposed someone for doing something wrong. If you call someone out for doing something wrong, you've 'thrown them under the bus'. It doesn't matter how you knew they did something wrong.

Crag Dweller wrote:I'm not trying to join the cast of this melodrama but I thought it was worth pointing out that 'throwing someone under the bus' means simply that you've exposed someone for doing something wrong. If you call someone out for doing something wrong, you've 'thrown them under the bus'. It doesn't matter how you knew they did something wrong.

I've also used the term to mean when you sacrifice another person to save your own *ss or make yourself look good.

Back East we also used to say "putting someone out on on Front Street".