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Bastille Trundled, Input Requested

jack roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 0

I agree with Brad. It does seem like the intentions of the park and of Mike McHugh seem to be to make the park safer for everyone but the list of loose rock is endless and in my opinion, it isn't the loose rock that is killing or harming climbers it is the poor judgement of climbers that is doing the harm. Trundling all the loose rock from the Upper or Lower Ramp on Redgarden Wall, or from the top of certain routes does not necessarily make it safer for people below. As Brad pointed out, often more loose rock is left behind once a large rock is bouldered off. Especially if inexperienced or unaware climbers don't pay attention and assume that the park now is responsible for everyone's safety.

For the park service to take on the responsibility of making the climbing environment safer is indeed a slippery slope. Better for all if climbers just educate themselves and be more careful and aware of their environment. Climbing is a dangerous sport.

Bill Duncan · · Glade Park, CO · Joined Mar 2005 · Points: 3,410

This thread is perhaps one of the finest examples of the benefit of the MP. Outstanding collaboration between climbers in an effort to better our climbing environment for the greater good.
I'm having a moment.
Mike, thanks for all of the work and driving consensus. Maybe there should be a Climber of the Year award or something, as you would certainly be in the running.

I thought it was "trundle":
v. trun·dled, trun·dling, trun·dles
v.tr.
1. To push or propel on wheels or rollers
2. To spin; twirl.

jack roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 0

At the moment I'm sitting here, about to go out and will later collect my thoughts on this subject.

I'm not quite sure how I feel about intentionally trundling loose debris from climbs. On one hand I recognize that many climbers who climb the walls of Eldo don't have the necessary experience and skills to perhaps avoid pulling on potentially dangerous blocks but then we can't sanitize the climbing experience in an attempt to make the activity safe. I also recognize that the park superintendent and climbing community doesn't want any more injuries..........

Maybe something as simple as a list of routes where loose blocks exist could be posted on the same signs where the raptor closures are posted would be an effective way to inform climbers. Anyhow, time to leave the house and go climb ini the heat...............

eldoradolocal · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 25

I haven't been up on the Bastille descent to inspect the damage, but having stabilized the slope and built the descent route some years ago, I'm interested in how much damage was done. I'll try to get up there tomorrow and look. Where exactly did it come down from? I saw the boulder off the edge of the road - it's good size.

Overall, it seems like the slope has held up pretty well over the last 15 years or so but perhaps it's time to think about some additional in-place stabilization if things are starting to loosen up again. I'd be glad to have a look and talk about it.

Julius Beres · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 364
eldoradolocal wrote:I haven't been up on the Bastille descent to inspect the damage, but having stabilized the slope and built the descent route some years ago, I'm interested in how much damage was done. I'll try to get up there tomorrow and look.
We took the descent a few hours after it was trundled and the damage is not too bad. I recall 2 of the stones placed as steps near the bottom were badly cracked and a bit loose (there were some cracked logs/branches next to these as well). There were a couple of other cracked stairs but nothing too serious. You could see impact marks all around, but nothing that would significantly impact the descent.
Russell Holcomb · · Boulder, Colorado · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 15

Hey sports fans,
Here's a bit of video of the festivities. Not much is more satisfying than a good trundle.
youtube.com/watch?v=yppANex…

eldoradolocal · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 25

I didn't realize it came off from so high up. Was the boulder on a route?

Cheyenne Wills · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 61

I think part of the "problem" with loose rock is a general lack of "being careful" by some parties.

Several years ago I had finished the 2nd pitch of Green Spur and watched as another party "shuffled" around on the Red Ledge. They knocked off a bunch of small rocks over a short period of time. Some of the rocks where knocked off by their rope, which they just yanked whenever a loop got caught on a rock, others because they were not careful on how they were walking around on the ledge. They would holler "rock", and were apologetic for knocking them off, but just continued doing what they were doing.

After the 2nd or 3rd rock, I mentioned that they should try to be more careful with how they were moving on the ledge and be more careful with how they were manging their rope. The response I got back was that "we are trying to be careful, but there are a lot of loose rocks, and we can't help knocking some of them off".

On the whole topic of trundling, I think there are two cases where it is warranted in a popular area. "Death blocks" in areas where there is a lot of traffic (whether it's on a route, or on a ledge above popular routes or trails), and the "dams" of smaller rocks that accumulate at certain points along approach/descent areas (for example towards the "lower end" of the Upper Ramp on Redgarden).

It's impossible to make areas safe, climbers need to be aware of this, and understand how to "move around" loose material.

I also think that a some proactive measures can be taken if there is a good general consensus that something needs to be trundled or cleaned off.

I personally would like to see a "broom" taken to parts of the Red Ledge, some spots along the Upper Ramp on Redgarden, and some spots along the Escape Ledge on the Wind Tower.

~~~~~~~~~~

Oh.. neat video :)

"I love the smell of rock dust in the morning... The smell, you know that gritty ozone smell... Smells like, victory"

eldoradolocal · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 25

Mike, let me know if you want a hand with installing replacement flagstones. I can show you how we made the templates and anchored the bolts.

beth bennett · · boulder · Joined May 2007 · Points: 5

mike, as you know (i hope) i really appreciate your hard work and efforts in eldo - but i have to weigh in against trundling. eldo is a metamorphic area, literally awash in loose rock. there is no way to clean up the ledge at the top of the 1st pitch of over the hill for instance! i've pulled off my share of loose holds there, been almost hit more than anyone should be by rock fall, and have learned to expect that loose stuff can and will come off. i'm not trying to belittle the pain and suffering many folks have endured as a result, but we do - or should - accept the risks inherent in the sport. there's no way to make life safe, just hope to educate people to make better choices.

Citsalp · · . . . CO · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 371

Oh man. . . that was one of my boulder projects! I was almost ready for a clean send. I hope you at least moved the boulder to the side of the road so I can continue to work that line.

Good work Mike (and all), and thanks.

I feel there is an appreciable difference between "loose stuff everywhere", and large, precarious, movable boulders awaiting just the right touch (or freeze/thaw) for a fall onto the Park road or one of the busiest climbers trails.
Most know that you could spend all day cleaning loose rock from most locations in Eldo. But there are dangerous exceptions that should be addressed sooner than later.
I suppose there are times when drills, chisels, expanding compounds and sledges could disable a dangerous stone where it lies, but not always.

I have nothing to add to a trundlers list. . . although the last time I was up at Cadillac. . . .

Roy Leggett · · Lyons, CO · Joined Jan 2004 · Points: 270

I am pro-trundling when it comes to precarious blocks on popular terrain. I can see how some might feel that it is an attempt to "sanitize" Eldo, but we need to be honest with ourselves and realize that we are talking about a renowned state park that is used by all walks of enthusiasts, and which is also located in what may be the recreation capital of the US. Perhaps the thrill of dodging boulders should be found elsewhere.

Climbing is dangerous, and no one knows that more than those involved in the Doub-Griffith accident and this years Wind Tower accident (both very serious accidents caused by rock fall). And it is important to point out that the woman involved in this year wind tower accident was merely walking below the route when another person grabbed the starting holds of there route and pulled off a desk sized boulder. What "education" and "better choices" should have been made there? Don't go into eldo..?

Really the question comes down to, would we rather have this boulder come off in a controlled setting with really no risk to peoples lives, or would we rather screw up many peoples days and maybe lives by leaving it here for someone to inadvertently discover.

Wayne DENSMORE · · Superior, CO · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 5
Roy Leggett wrote:... Really the question comes down to, would we rather have this boulder come off in a controlled setting with really no risk to peoples lives, or would we rather screw up many peoples days and maybe lives by leaving it here for someone to inadvertently discover.
+1
Rob Kepley · · Westminster, CO · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,005

Anyone who was against this particular trundle has apparently never done the Bastille decent. This death block was not part of any route but just sitting on the ledge that is pretty much impossible to avoid when passing. I was coming off the Bastille just days before Mike secured it with the strap and almost crapped myself when I stepped on it. This rock needed to come down. If someone would have dislodged this on a busy weekend... someone would have died.

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

Mike, the rock you chose to trundle was entirely appropriate. Keep doing the same thing.

Cheyenne Wills · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 61

I would like to clarify my comment above.

I was not trying to say that all loose rock should be removed. That would be an impossible task, especially in an area such as Eldo. Loose rock is a fact of nature.

Loose rock is simply best avoided, and in Eldo that would mean avoiding many routes. So.. should the descent route off the Bastille be avoided? Maybe everyone should just rap off.

We have all come across a large loose flake that's about ready to go any minute now, or a pile of rocks that is jammed up in some descent area that is one "stuck rope" away from being pulled down.

I personally believe that with a community consensus, there are some areas that might warrant the relocation of some loose rock.

jack roberts · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 0

Actually both the accident on Doub-Griffith and the Wind Tower were NOT rockfall accidents.
They were caused by human error. Climbers pulling on loose rock. Going around the park and trundling loose blocks from routes only perpetuates the problem, and the problem is inexperienced climbers who are not careful when it comes to being aware of loose holds, blocks and their surroundings. And anyone walking beneath a route ought to know that there is potential for rockfall. Maybe not walking as close to the Wind Ridge as she was would have been a better choice.

If you climb outside you have to accept the risks that go along with being outside and not expect that every hold is of solid rock, just like you have to accept the risk of rock that cannot be protected without bolts. Just like thunderstorms, lightening, hail etc, there are risks to climbing outside. Loose and falling stone are just a few of these.

I think that all that is necessary is a list of routes that have obvious loose and dangerous blocks perched on them and that list be posted where the closures are posted. Anything more is unnecessary. Education is the best solution.

Kevin Stricker · · Evergreen, CO · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 1,197

So Jack, just a thought here, but if you were guiding a client who accidentally pulled off a block that seriously injured another person would the human error be by your client or you? It's easy to say "Eldo's not safe" but hypocritical if you guide people there.

The fact that it is a recreational area enjoyed by many who are not climbers changes the rules a bit doesn't it? I am not pro-sanitation, but controlled trundeling seems a saner option than just being careful. After all Eldo is mostly a beginner area if you were to look at the data, do you want to trust your life to someone who really doesn't have a clue? It's easy to sit back as the veteran and say that everyone should just be safer, but that is not going to stop accidents from occurring. After all, it usually takes a couple close calls to become safer in the first place.

Kent Pease · · Littleton, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,066

The term “slippery slope” is an especially relevant term for rockfall….

A case for thought – sorry that I don’t have the details or references and maybe it is only hearsay, but it illustrates the point. In a U.S city, likely New York, a motorist tried to collect damages from the City caused by hitting a pothole with his vehicle. He was not successful because the City had not known or been informed of the pothole. Subsequently some enterprising lawyers surveyed the entire city documenting the location of all potholes, and then presented the list to the city.

Sam Lightner, Jr. · · Lander, WY · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 2,732

I was on top of the Bastille about a month ago and commented that it should go. I recognize the seriousness of the type of climbing in Eldo. However, the Bastille is perhaps the most popular crag in the country and one of the easiest to get to. The hillsides has been terraced, a road exists below, a parking area for 200 cars is 2 minutes away. You may have to place your own gear and many of the routes may be run out, but by location this is about as easy as it gets.
As for the stuff that breaks apart, lands on ledges, and adds to the total number of chunks that could fall, well, we need to get those down too.
Now trundling the equivalent on Longs Peak, or even Lumpy Ridge, would be silly.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Colorado
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