Lead Belaying with grigri

Mike Lane describes the proper technique. Keep your fucking hand on the brake strand and pay attention! Rock climbing isn't the place to get complacent.

Price wrote: And let me know where that trash can is. :)

If we're throwing it away... Its probably too high for you to reach. :P

Price wrote:Nice conversation and all, but wasn't the OP a troll? I personally use the new method and like it a lot for 1 pitch climbs.

How am I a troll? I just was curious on the right way to belay, as based on the petzl video the person I observed was not doing it as they recommend. I know its not a grigri but recently read about this and would not like to witness an accident like that or have it happen to me. There are plenty of accidents with "auto-locking" belay devices.

Baumer wrote:Mike Lane describes the proper technique. Keep your fucking hand on the brake strand and pay attention! Rock climbing isn't the place to get complacent.

This pretty much sums up my approach. Very succinctly put.
And, my advice would be that my way is the best way.

You can make the same mistake a thousand times, but it will only kill you once!

That said, I regularly rope solo with a gri-gri which leaves no hands on the brake side of the device. Auto-lock.

Right hand controls the brake and the left rips slack out for the leader. This is the best belay and device. I don't like being belayed with anything else anymore.

Tim Kuss wrote: You can make the same mistake a thousand times, but it will only kill you once! That said, I regularly rope solo with a gri-gri which leaves no hands on the brake side of the device. Auto-lock. Right hand controls the brake and the left rips slack out for the leader. This is the best belay and device. I don't like being belayed with anything else anymore.

the pic won't come through when I quote, unfortunately, but that's the same method i use and i've found that the friction added does sometimes make it difficult to feed out rope smoothly.

the solution i've come up with is to pull about a half an arm's length of rope through the brake hand so that i have that much available to feed before the friction of the brake hand comes into play. picture that much rope being present between the brake hand and the entry point of the gri-gri.

admittedly, that does leave 2-3' of slack should the gri-gri fail completely. but, i have a hard time imagining complete failure.

i'd be interested in hearing if anyone has come up with a better way.

Tim Kuss wrote: You can make the same mistake a thousand times, but it will only kill you once! That said, I regularly rope solo with a gri-gri which leaves no hands on the brake side of the device. Auto-lock. Right hand controls the brake and the left rips slack out for the leader. This is the best belay and device. I don't like being belayed with anything else anymore.

In that picture; if the rope is running on the opposite side of the device, using that technique will cause the rope to run over the locking cam. This will cause failure, or impair at best, the locking capability of the device.
A left handed person could easily get into that situation.

Risky business trying to use a GriGri like an ATC.

Doug Metcalf wrote: In that picture; if the rope is running on the opposite side of the device, using that technique will cause the rope to run over the locking cam. This will cause failure, or impair at best, the locking capability of the device. A left handed person could easily get into that situation. Risky business trying to use a GriGri like an ATC.

I agree that using the grigri as shown in the photo left handed could present issues, maybe Petzl should consider making a lefty version?

I don't understand what you mean by using a "grigri like an ATC" since your brake hand should never need to touch the ATC, or are you just referring to using it ambidextrously?

Anyway, to the OP question. The belayer was absolutely wrong in how they were belaying if their "brake hand" was always on the grigri. There have been several accidents involving the grigri being used in this manner mostly by very experienced climber/belayers. The tendency when catching a fall is to grab hold, and if you grab hold of the grigri you hold it open and keep it from locking. The main reason behind Petzl updating their recommended method is because they feel that you can not (or at least it is much more difficult to) stop the cam from engaging by holding that way and it is easier to keep the break end of the rope controlled in your hand.

I use the other method that has been mentioned in this post as this was the original recommendation, but it always involves only pinching the device while paying slack and then immediately sliding the break hand back down the rope to get a more complete grip. I've used the new method some and when you first start using it, it feels extremely awkward and almost stupid, probably like most of us that use grigri's felt when we started coming from an ATC, if the grigri was not the first belay device you used, which it should not be (a whole other topic) we just forget the whole learning process after years of using it. That said, the more I've used the new technique the easier it has gotten and it does not seem so bad anymore, though I still use the old method most times.

From Petzl's web site.

The GRIGRI's assisted braking system helps the belayer catch and hold a climber, making it great for working routes. Works equally well for lead climbing and top roping. Ergonomic design makes for smooth, controllable lowers. Also great for rappelling on single ropes - perfect for setting and cleaning routes.

* Assisted braking system: if the rope suddenly comes under tension (e.g. in a fall), the cam pivots to pinch the rope, thus helping the belayer stop the climber's fall
* Usage is similar to that of conventional belay devices:
- paying out rope is done using both hands
- arresting a fall is done by holding the free end of the rope
- for lowering and rappelling, the rate of descent is controlled by the hand holding the free end of the rope (the rope is released with the handle).

For use with single ropes between 10 and 11 mm in diameter

Notice, it never says, "Auto-locking"? and specifically says "arresting a fall is done by holding the free end of the rope". Keep your break hand on the rope people, if you can't do this and feed slack with a grigri, don't use it or practice till you can.

I think the gri-gri was designed for right hand only on the break. This doesn't make it right handed though. It is what it is. Also, I think that in a fall, it would be impossible to hold the cam down with your thumb on it as pictured, there is just too much force activating it by the falling climber. Therefore, the right hand simply ends up holding the break side of the rope.

Tim Kuss wrote:I think the gri-gri was designed for right hand only on the break. This doesn't make it right handed though. It is what it is. Also, I think that in a fall, it would be impossible to hold the cam down with your thumb on it as pictured, there is just too much force activating it by the falling climber. Therefore, the right hand simply ends up holding the break side of the rope.

Yep, as long as none of the fingers rest on the bottom of the grigri, the natural tendency to clench while cupping the grigri has led to a number of dropped climbers. Make sure only the thumb holds the grigri

Thanks for the picture, Tim.

I was surprised to see how many consider it okay to belay with a GriGri without the brake hand on the rope. Yeah, probably nothing will happen, but sometimes it does.

I almost always belay lead with an ATC. I was going to make a comment about always keeping the brake hand on the rope, even with a GriGri, but then I saw Tim's picture. When I thought about it, I realized that when I do use a GriGri, I habitually release the rope with my brake hand when I let out slack for a clip.

Again, thanks for the picture, Tim.

LeeAB wrote:Notice, it never says, "Auto-locking"? and specifically says "arresting a fall is done by holding the free end of the rope".

That is an astute observation. (I'm not being sarcastic.) When I read your post, I had to go and grab the instruction booklet that came with my GriGri. Ironically, on the first page at the top, it says, "Self-braking belay descender device."

The instructions do focus on the brake hand, though, not the "self-braking."

Edit--
Instruction booklet, page 6 under "Diagram 8. Rappeling" (it really uses only one "l")

"The GRIGRI is an autolock, but for maximum safety, when holding the handle, you must never let go of the free end of the rope. To descend, first take a firm grip on the free end of the rope. Then, pull gently on the handle to free the rope. Braking and descent control are effected by loosening or tightening the grip of one hand on the free end of the rope. In order to stop, simply release the handle."

It looks like the paper instructions are in slight conflict with the website instructions, which move away from the self-braking aspect. Maybe to deter liability?

I use my right hand to hold the cam open when I feed slack but my thumb and index finger are always on the brake side of the rope.

Unless the climber is close to the ground or ledge I usually have a bit of a loop. That gives me a little warning when the leader goes to pull rope to clip in. It also makes the fall a little softer and often prevents climbers from smacking the wall hard when the rope comes up tight.

Trent,
I'm impressed that you kept the instructions that came with your grigri, I doubt most climbers do such a thing, more should they are a good reference.

• How old is your grigri? there should be a stamp on it that will give a clue to the date of manufacture on the bottom of the plastic portion on the brake side of the Petzl logo (the stamp on the one I have is V61095 (whoops, its actually 96019A), needless to say it is pretty old and I've even lost a newer one). They only changed their literature a few years ago, 2007, maybe 2008. So it is very possible that your instructions are the old version. Kind of like having Windows 95 or something.
• And yes you are absolutely right in that Petzl move away from the whole Auto-locking, Self-breaking thing for liability reasons. Though it also gives the impression that the device can be operated without thinking and you can't screw it up, which is obviously not true.

Edit:

• Another note, even in Tim's picture this is still not quite the "new and improved" technique, in theory the side of the right index finger (pointing back towards the belayer) should only be supporting the rounded ridge that the break end of the rope wraps over. This I guess helps get around the whole clenching fist thing that would allow someone to hold the device open if they wrapped their fingers under the device.

No stamp on the plastic part. The only numbers I can find are the serial number 07198F12364 and a sunshine-circle-thingy with the number 07 on the metal part under the plastic handle. Do either of those mean anything to you? It was a gift, but I believe it was purchased just over one year ago.

LeeAB wrote:the stamp on the one I have is V61095 (whoops, its actually 96019A

Classic!

Edit:
I just checked the instructions, which show where the date stamp should be. There is nothing stamped there. I guess my GriGri was never manufactured. Maybe it's just a figment of my imagination? (I guess my three year guarantee will never run out.)

Doug Metcalf wrote: In that picture; if the rope is running on the opposite side of the device, using that technique will cause the rope to run over the locking cam. This will cause failure, or impair at best, the locking capability of the device. A left handed person could easily get into that situation. Risky business trying to use a GriGri like an ATC.

that's the method i use and i'm a little confused by your comment. i can't imagine how the rope would prevent the device from locking. do you have any experience with that happening?

Craig, I believe Doug is saying that if you were a lefty and had the rope wrapped around in the same way but to the left of the device instead of the right it would be looped over the release lever, which it would. And that this would be certainly less than ideal for pretty obvious reasons.

Trent, it sounds like your was made right around the time that the change in procedure took place since it was first presented in 2007, so I would guess that the instructions you have would be different from those that you would get if you were to buy a "new" (one that has no been sitting on the shelf since 2007) GriGri.

Mike Lane wrote:There's a right way to do it. You roll your right forefinger and wedge it against the lip on the side. Then you hold your right thumb just above the knuckle of the grigri while feeding rope out with the left. You also let the rope slide through your right palm and other 3 fingers, so you maintain the brake hand just like a regular belay. Moves simple when done right.

+1 but it definitely takes practice and an understanding of the how the device is intended to work.

Mike Lane wrote:That said, this was a technique my wife just never could get right. I was leading one of my easy routes at DH when I heard Tod Anderson say to my wife: "he's not on belay when you do that." I'm not sure if I've let her belay me after that.

Classic! :)

LeeAB wrote:Craig, I believe Doug is saying that if you were a lefty and had the rope wrapped around in the same way but to the left of the device instead of the right it would be looped over the release lever, which it would. And that this would be certainly less than ideal for pretty obvious reasons. Trent, it sounds like your was made right around the time that the change in procedure took place since it was first presented in 2007, so I would guess that the instructions you have would be different from those that you would get if you were to buy a "new" (one that has no been sitting on the shelf since 2007) GriGri.

ah, yes. i must be experiencing selective reading syndrome today. i skipped right over the left-hand mention.