are you a climbing safety officer?

Adam Stackhouse wrote:The single blue cord is incredibly scary. That thing gives and you lose. I was taught to always have two separate lines.

No kidding, at least the common sense of redundancy would be nice, or the concept of a back up. He tried but clearly failed.

I think the problem lies in the world of top Ropers, there is a sect, that only does this, and seem to be notorious for shotty practices.

J. Albers wrote: hmmm...maybe. Or maybe its that the 2-5 year climbers still have virtually the same knowledge as a beginner and it just takes 2-5 years for the statistics to catch up. i.e. if you setup of stupid a@#, unsafe anchor, sooner or later its going to fail and you are gonna eat dirt.

+1

I'm in that 2-5 year sweet zone :)

I've read two different anchor/rescue books as well as FOH. I've also had three instructed outings, lead/trad and general climbing. I was in ROTC in HS and have 3 years of safe rappelling and rope only anchor set-ups (two round turns and a bowline + two half hitches. I have practiced on the ground nearly 1:2 ratio as climbing on my anchors.

With that said, If you saw a setup I had made and found something unsafe, I would gladly discuss it with you, get a feel for YOUR experience and then research/ground test anything you told me.

Two points there. Take constructive criticism, and apply with the same approach all your knowledge/training has taken, with research and testing.

Thanks

ryanmakescoffee:

It's hard to say exactly how far one should go in these types of situations. If it's a matter of life or death, say, he thinks his core-shotted rope will hold his girlfriend just fine thank you very much, then say something.

In the picture you posted, that's a pretty terrible situation. But are they going to die? Probably not. So I say, make the offer for a small bit of advice without forcing it. And then let them screw up. Let them groundfall on a TR 30 feet up. Let them break their ankles/legs/egos, because no amount of teaching will fix the stupid that is in that photo.

I am a safety committee leader, Does that count?

ben kenobi wrote:...no amount of teaching will fix the stupid that is in that photo.

I disagree. A lot of noobs just don't know any better.

In response to the OP: I always feel out situations first. If I think they will take my advice constructively, I chime in. Otherwise I shut up. A lot of it deals with how you approach them too. Some guy was teaching his buddy how to belay when we were warming up. The teacher was climbing while the new belayer was practicing a rather shoddy belay. Once the teacher was in direct at the anchors and off belay, I showed the new guy a way to belay without taking his hand off the break end. While the new belayer was grateful for the advice, the teacher flipped that I had no business teaching him and I was undermining his authority… It made for an awkward 20 minutes until we headed off. Basically, feel the situation out and realize that you’re gonna piss off some people at one point or another if you play “safety officer.”

You know what I think we are leaving out? Some people (read most people) are f@#king idiots. I didn't need my mentor to tell me that a single, not locking biner being weighted over an edge is a terrible idea.

Unfortunately, idiots make the world difficult for everyone else. Example, my gym is currently being sued because some dip shit girl tied into the little piece of webbing that is on the under side of your harness belay loop; i.e. the tiny little piece that holds the rope from sliding away from a centered position when the harness gets weighted. None of her (count 'em) FIVE partners stopped her from doing this. She decked from the top of the route and broke various parts of her ankle. Now Mommy is suing for damages. Someone should point out to this woman that if her dumb ass kid drives into telephone pole, that doesn't give her the right to sue the telephone company. What ever happened to personal responsibility? But I digress....

As others have said, if the group is doing something that might get someone killed, you should probably say something. I would argue that for no other reason then your day is going to get ruined if somebody dies and you have to deal with it.

john L:

I see what you're saying. I guess a core-shot rope can actually be pretty strong...I mean, it is the core. But what are you talking about? Belt loops are bomber!

caughtinside wrote:I just try to climb at areas with few beginners. It's usually not that hard. if you went to a popular beginner wall/area on a saturday and lectured every n00b about what they were doing wrong or could do better, you'd have no time left to climb. Plus it gives me the willies watching a near accident in progress.

True that.

I remember being a n00b and going to the local n00b wall only to run into the imperious trad leaders, scornful of the n00bism they found in their midst (this was at 90 foot wall). My sect of n00bpanions tended toward the overly safe variety , so I don't think we were an imminent danger, just a general n00bsance. Later, as a more experienced leader myself, a partner told me about all the n00b incidents she saw going on at this same wall getting all outraged and scornful of the near-misses with tossed ropes and sketchy shit going down all around her. Of course, the only reasonable response was: "You went to the n00b wall, what the hell do you expect?"

hahah, i n00bed at 90 ft wall for nearly the entire duration of my n00berty.

Is it our responsibility to let others know that they are about to do something really stupid?

I've tried. One was even a guide showing people how to toprope off of a single bolt in Red Rocks Open Space. That didn't go over very well.

I used to teach at a climbing gym back home in NY. On some weekends I'd be up in the Gunks climbing and I would see people whom I had only taught how to tie in and belay there with brand new gear trying to climb. (yes i was jealous of the gear)

I believe in Darwinism. Not that I didn't do stupid things way long ago, but I apprenticed under an experience climber and read a lot of books. I didn't start leading till I had a few years following under my belt and all I used were nuts and hexes.

I will help if asked and have done so. If you are new, you should find someone who will take you under their wing, or take some classes. The benefit far outweighs the cost that you or others may have to pay if something goes wrong. Take a self rescue class as well.
Unfortunately the downside is that increased accidents may affect access. Climb safe, push your limits when you are good at the technical stuff, like placing gear, understanding loads and that each piece you place is not an individual but part of a whole.

Wow, that is a textbook case of how not to build an anchor. I am not sure if you told me to doing everything wrong I could come up with that many blunders.

Personally I do chime in when something seems sketchy. Now I am polite and just offer my suggestion as something to think about. Most of the time it is well received, however I just got the brush off on the third pitch of Birdland.

The leader was climbing on a single line, trailing a second line. As I am rapping down I notice he pulls the lead line up and through all the gear, which is still in the crack and on the bolt. So now I see that his second has tied into the tag line, which is not running through any gear. If you are not familiar with that pitch it starts right and busts left on a traverse for about 20+ feet and then up to the anchor. So the second has nothing protecting him on the traverse and a fall would send him rocketing into the hollow pillar to the left.

I think "now that is weird" and just mention that maybe next time it would be safer to keep the rope the second is on clipped to the gear preventing a bad pendulum fall for the second. The guy responds to me and I quote "oh we just do that on 8's and 9's". I think okay and continue on down.

In regards to using a single cordelette: if you tie off the cord and create a master point, you have essentially created two cords (redundancy). One side could fail and the other side is a closed system still connecting the anchor point to the rope, make sense?

Ok, I realize I did write the word "noob" in my earlier post (to make fun of people who use it), but I'm seriously going to shoot the next person that writes "n00b"!! In any endeavor the easiest way to spot someone who doesn't know WTF they are talking about is to look for the person calling everyone else a n00b!

We've all been beginners at some point and to insult someone who is just learning a new trade simply because they are green is just stupid.

However Ryan should have put the smack down on those guys! I'm pretty sure that in your chill manner, you could have breached the subject in a way to get your point across without insulting any of them too much. They sound as if they are pretty psyched on climbing, and if that's the case then they would probably appreciate some direction.

ryanmakescoffee wrote:hahah, i n00bed at 90 ft wall for nearly the entire duration of my n00berty.

Haha, "n00berty". I like it.

JLP wrote:I'm just not seeing imminent death here. I'd keep walking.

Agreed. Not an ideal set-up, but realistically it will hold. These folks could learn a lot, but not to the point where I would say something unless there was a good opportunity to do so.

That is the most terrible thing I have ever seen. I feel like throwing up. Please continue giving cragside lectures, everyone.

Definitely worth it to quietly show them a better anchor solution and explain why it is better so they can learn something.

From someone who has taken no small amount of grief, both in person and on the interwebz, for giving unsolicited safety advise... yes, I'd say something (trying to be as nice as possible about it) and would advise you and other climbers to do the same. No telling how many lives you could be saving. In a "fun" activity like cragging, the penalty for stupid shouldn't be death (much as I'd like to pretend otherwise when in a particularly cranky mood). Especially if it can be easily prevented.

Just give some constructive advice and then keep walking away..........

What's with all these "I like telling other people what to do" threads on MP lately?

This is how you deal with bad setups. I've found its the most effective way to communicate with idiots.

Step one: Remove your harness.

Step two: Unzip your fly (or remove pants if female).

Step three: Urinate on the offending setup.

Step four: When offending party confronts you, explain to them very nicely why what they were doing was dangerous.

This way they are the ones approaching you and they can't get angry at you for trying to give unsolicited advice.

In extremely dry or freezing conditions fecal matter can be substituted for urine. Just be sure to smear it evenly so that it is truly equalized across all parts.