Missing crashpads at Panther Peak

Larry wrote:Straw man argument Whatever happened to leave no trace?

No doubt.

Chris, bummer about the pads. I do hope you get them back, although I agree with the majority of the folks about the whole stashing pads issue. Not cool, but somehow I don't see some klepto as standing in for karma is this instance. The proper way of handling it would have been to pick up your "abandoned" stuff and post a notice in the local community asking them to reclaim their crap, with the caveat that if it happens again, it's gone for good.

Anyways, I was mostly chiming in because while most folks seems to feel that stashing pads is contrary to the leave no trace issue (my opinion as well), how many of those same folks think it's OK to leave draws on a climb. Just curious.

Forget ethics, leave no trace, park regulations and local habits. It is really much more simple. If you leave something unlocked/unsecured on public land you risk the chance of losing it. I’m sure this has been going on since a Neanderthal man left his spear in the forest and anther guy picked it up. If you abandon something on public land you take the chance that someone might take it. It is the same thing if you leave quickdraws on a route, fixed lines on a cliff or skis at the base of a resort. It is a risk you take.

In no way do I support stealing, but this is the risk anyone takes when they leave their gear. Apparently others travel this area and the pads were not stashed well. You took the risk and lost. I’m sorry and I hope you get them back, but I doubt you will. In the future understand that there are people in this world who are thieves and/or disagree with you leaving pads. Hopefully this becomes a bad memory and a lesson learned for you.

Lastly, you really can’t hike the pads out?

Sergio P wrote:Forget ethics, leave no trace, park regulations and local habits. It is really much more simple. If you leave something unlocked/unsecured on public land you risk the chance of losing it. I’m sure this has been going on since a Neanderthal man left his spear in the forest and anther guy picked it up. If you abandon something on public land you take the chance that someone might take it. It is the same thing if you leave quickdraws on a route, fixed lines on a cliff or skis at the base of a resort. It is a risk you take. In no way do I support stealing, but this is the risk anyone takes when they leave their gear. Apparently others travel this area and the pads were not stashed well. You took the risk and lost. I’m sorry and I hope you get them back, but I doubt you will. In the future understand that there are people in this world who are thieves and/or disagree with you leaving pads. Hopefully this becomes a bad memory and a lesson learned for you. Lastly, you really can’t hike the pads out?

Great post. It seems the only concensus we can come to is that YOU TAKE A RISK WHENEVER YOU LEAVE THINGS.

I think the fact that they are gone is proof that they were not super low key. Also, I don't know that it was surely a climber who ganked them. It could easily have been someone who disagreed with littering and took them as a FU. Also, consider that a ranger could have found them.

I think that the access issues this practice leaves is a salient discussion. It is not simply a climber concensus issue.

And, to be honest, I'm not incedibly sorry you lost them and hope it keeps you from doing it in the future

Evan

Brent Silvester wrote:actually, i believe this area is managed as state trust land.

I do not know where these boulders are exactly, but the Tucson Bouldering website (link provided above) says the boulders are WITHIN Saguaro National Park. A quick google search makes clear that Panther Peak itself sits 2-3 miles from the closest road, at least a couple miles as the crow flies INTO Saguaro National Park - West and on the border of an officially designated WILDERNESS AREA within the NP.

I'm sure the rangers will be thrilled to hear that people are stashing pads back there and I would not be surprised if wilderness rangers were the ones who carted them out. Have you checked in with the wilderness rangers? I'm sure they'll be thrilled to have a few words with you whether they removed them or not.

Fat Dad wrote: Anyways, I was mostly chiming in because while most folks seems to feel that stashing pads is contrary to the leave no trace issue (my opinion as well), how many of those same folks think it's OK to leave draws on a climb. Just curious.

Draws on climbs...add fixed ropes, drilling equipment, gear caches, food caches, etc. Not sure why crash pads should be singled out *unless there's a problem.* There undoubtedly was a problem in Chaos Canyon, but every situation is different.

I also fail to see how not wanting to take your crash pads with you every time you do a long hike is any different than not wanting to re-hang draws, or not wanting to hike your gear up to the Diamond multiple times, or not wanting to climb the Free Blast with your haul bags, etc.

For those of you who are so gleefully exuberant about Chris's misfortune, please remember this thread when something of yours is inevitably stolen. I want you to put yourself in Chris's shoes. Would you want to have a bunch of people you don't know saying, "good, I hope you learned a lesson?" I doubt it.

If you think, "well, I never leave my shit around," then good for you. Just be sure to not fix ropes on the first few pitches of an aid climb. Be sure not to fix ropes when working a project. Be sure not to leave fixed draws on a project. Be sure to pack all of your hardware in and out each day while you are developing a new area. Be sure to not leave 'biners on the anchors. Be sure to not leave quicklinks on anchors. Be sure to not leave fixed pins. Be sure to not leave fixed bolts, because those come out too. If you are camping in wilderness areas, don't go for a hike and leave your tent and camping supplies behind because that is clearly litter. Don't park your car at the trailhead because you are just asking for thieves to break in. And if they do, good. You learned a lesson.

Chris, I'm sorry to hear that your crashpads got swiped. I really hope you get them back. And also a big thanks for finding and developing new bouldering areas around Tucson.

Charles Vernon wrote:Not sure why crash pads should be singled out *unless there's a problem.* There undoubtedly was a problem in Chaos Canyon, but every situation is different.

I agree 100%. This sounds like a bunch of people hating on a fellow climber they've never met and scapegoating him for some perceived access issue that has never even happened.

How many critics on this thread actually saw these particular pads and thought they were an eyesore? Or better yet, how many of these people have taken positive action to improve an access situation other than criticizing someone they never met on the internet? Are you seriously concerned that vegetation, marmots, tourists, or access are going to be affected by Chris's three, formerly-stashed pads?

Chris never made claims that it was appropriate or inappropriate to leave his gear there, and he's not asking for sympathy... just that he'd like to locate his stuff now that it's gone missing. So unless you actually have some way of helping (either Chris or access concerns), maybe you should just keep your mouth shut.

And to the guy who claims credibility because of his 70lb pack of "climbing gear", I'd be happy to discuss over email how to lighten your load for a more enjoyable rock climbing experience.

Charles Vernon wrote: Draws on climbs...add fixed ropes, drilling equipment, gear caches, food caches, etc. Not sure why crash pads should be singled out *unless there's a problem.* There undoubtedly was a problem in Chaos Canyon, but every situation is different. I also fail to see how not wanting to take your crash pads with you every time you do a long hike is any different than not wanting to re-hang draws, or not wanting to hike your gear up to the Diamond multiple times, or not wanting to climb the Free Blast with your haul bags, etc.

Charles, I would agree with you in this sense. When I go up to the Diamond, I find it f*cking annoying that someone has stashed a big ass container of gear under the boulders below N. Chimney. I don't care that you are working a route. Though a bit hypocritical of me, I have a litte (keyword little) more sympathy for route developers leaving a bit of stuff for SHORT period of time. Fixed draws (except those where they are on VERY overhanging walls in an out of the way area) are also annoying. Do I take down the fixed stuff at my local sport crag? No. Did I gank the container full of goodies below the Diamond? Nope. Would I be psyched if that stuff got stolen? No, but that is just because I think stealing peoples stuff is not the best solution nor a nice thing to do. However, that doesn't mean that I have to have a ton of sympathy for missing things, and further, it surely doesn't mean that I am not going to tell the individual that what they are doing is not okay.

Josh Janes wrote: I agree 100%. This sounds like a bunch of people hating on a fellow climber they've never met and scapegoating him for some perceived access issue that has never even happened. How many critics on this thread actually saw these particular pads and thought they were an eyesore? Or better yet, how many of these people have taken positive action to improve an access situation other than criticizing someone they never met on the internet? Are you seriously concerned that vegetation, marmots, tourists, or access are going to be affected by Chris's three, formerly-stashed pads? Chris never made claims that it was appropriate or inappropriate to leave his gear there... just that he'd like to locate it now that it's gone missing. So unless you actually have some way of helping (either Chris or access concerns), maybe you should just keep your mouth shut. And to the guy who claims credibility because of his 70lb pack of "climbing gear", I'd be happy to discuss over email how to lighten your load for a more enjoyable rock climbing experience.

Josh, I don't think this is about hating on someone. I think most people would hope that he gets his stuff back. That said, I think others are simply using this as an opportunity to voice what I think is a very valid concern. Don't leave your sh*t lying around. Seems like this is a whole lot better way to do that then to steal the persons stuff, which is probably what happened in this instance. How else (besides stealing their stuff) is someone going to know that the community finds their behavior annoying? I mean, should I be forced to carry a pen and pad in my pack so that I can leave them a note?

all chris is asking for is his stuff back. he's not saying that leaving the pads out there was right or wrong. and frankly, as other people have pointed out, stashing crash pads doesn't seem any worse than stashing anything else or hanging draws, fixing lines, etc.

are crash pads dangerous because wildlife could get into them and make a giant mess of foam in an otherwise natural environment, or are most of you guys simply against stashing anything on public land?

Woohoo, I haven't bothered to read anything other than the original thread...but stashing crashpads sucks and you deserve to loose them. Seriously. That being said there was a time ... I was young...I stashed crashpads too, but not only was that then and this is now...but mine were always there when I returned, unbeknowst to anyone...funny, huh?

EDIT: OK I read the JR points above -only because they were there on my computer sceen- all valid and legit, but what about the defenseless little animals, plants, fungi, and bacteria (protists)?smothered by said CPs? ... innocently, slowly, and painfully smothered from oxygen...destined to die a slow and painful deaths...many *spepcies* yet to be described by science? huh? who will speak for them? huh??

Chris, this is H. I need to see you. I'm the one who took your pad.

Well. I guess we can close the books on that one.

(edit: I don't actually have the crash pads, and I cried for Mother Earth last night)

Ahhhhh.......a happy ending (and a rare bit of satisfying closure).

H, that doctor you sent me to was really thorough. Seriously though, he doesn't have them.

Like I said before, I get the "stashing" debate. Thanks to those who are familiar with the area for their comments. It sucks to think that after discovering, cleaning, and posting a new area that Joe and I might get to lose gear as well.

COME OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNN PEOPLE!!!

Those pads are now in the hands of illegals using them as portable beds. I bet that they have been going through there for the LAST 30 YEARS.

Fantasy Island is a GREAT ride but the trash does sux.

I'm a little late to this, but I'll try and absorb some of the criticism for Chris, as one of the pads and some of the gear is mine.

We stashed the pads as a temporary measure to make developing this area a little easier. The rock is very suspect until thoroughly cleaned and climbed on and the boulders are BIG. So it gave us peace of mind having multiple pads out there for when a hold exploded on us 18 feet up. Now that development was slowing, we were going to remove the pads, which was the plan all along. I understood the pros and cons of stashing and the risk of them getting stolen, but it is still a little disappointing.

Glad you got your pads back. That said, stashing crashpads in a National Park and on the boundary of an officially designated Wilderness Area is poor form and not cool. To say Saguaro is any different from Chaos Canyon or Mount Evans Wilderness Area is a misrepresentation of the facts. Just like alpine tundra, desert environments are known to be particularly sensitive to the impacts made and left behind by man.

If the Panther Peak Boulders are good (and the volcanic nature of the blocks sounds good), the masses will come every winter, even though the area seems completely devoid of other humans the rest of the year. When THEY start coming, the National Park will begin to take notice. Wilderness Rangers will be dispatched to see "what the hell is going on over there at Panther Peak." They will just stroll in when you are least expecting it and take stock of all the social trails, primitive campsites and other obviously human impacts in that extremely sensitive desert environment that lies on the border of an officially designated Wilderness Area.

Everything that happens downstream from there is uncertain and it will rest upon the shoulders of those that care about the place to take care of it, to build goodwill with the land mangement agency, in this case the NPS. Ways to do this include talking to the rangers NOW, limiting unsanctioned trails to and from the boulders, limiting the social trails and campsite impacts around the boulders which are almost inevitable, and to encourage all visiting boulderers to adhere to no trace principles and generally take care of the place, etc. It's only a matter of time before you or someone else will be dealing with these issues in regards to Panther Peak.

Hey; even the rangers in the front range returned the 29+ hangers I "left behind"(bolts not included).

Chip Phillips wrote:Glad you got your pads back. That said, stashing crashpads in a National Park and on the boundary of an officially designated Wilderness Area is poor form and not cool. To say Saguaro is any different from Chaos Canyon or Mount Evans Wilderness Area is a misrepresentation of the facts. Just like alpine tundra, desert environments are known to be particularly sensitive to the impacts made and left behind by man. If the Panther Peak Boulders are good (and the volcanic nature of the blocks sounds good), the masses will come every winter, even though the area seems completely devoid of other humans the rest of the year. When THEY start coming, the National Park will begin to take notice. Wilderness Rangers will be dispatched to see "what the hell is going on over there at Panther Peak." They will just stroll in when you are least expecting it and take stock of all the social trails, primitive campsites and other obviously human impacts in that extremely sensitive desert environment that lies on the border of an officially designated Wilderness Area. Everything that happens downstream from there is uncertain and it will rest upon the shoulders of those that care about the place to take care of it, to build goodwill with the land mangement agency, in this case the NPS. Ways to do this include talking to the rangers NOW, limiting unsanctioned trails to and from the boulders, limiting the social trails and campsite impacts around the boulders which are almost inevitable, and to encourage all visiting boulderers to adhere to no trace principles and generally take care of the place, etc. It's only a matter of time before you or someone else will be dealing with these issues in regards to Panther Peak.

these guys don't give 2 shits about the environment

EDIT: My bad to not put that a better way. Really it's a no win... if NPS gets involved everything could go to shit depending on the people at the park and their motivations. But, my sentiments in that statement still stand. the prof is in the fact that they left them out there, and the impacts of that are well spoken about on this site in other threads.