Why are there so few 12+ routes on Mt. Lemmon?

edit: I remove my post because this conversation has gotten so dumb.

The Boodge wrote: You were the guys that brought a radio out there - I guess so you could develop your "relationship with the rock" by playing music to it.

Ha ha ha. I heard about that radio . . . and I havn't been to Jailhouse in over a year! They play music in the gym, right?

Be carful Derik, what you say on this website is seen by a lot of people. And you don't want to be pissing off the EFR FA climbing posse, it's a big group.

Derek Anderson wrote:I personally think its sad that a bunch of grown men can get into it about ratings, I mean rock doesnt have ratings carved into it does it? Rock climbing started out , and don't forget it... about adventure.. about seeking and finding the way to the tops of things... I understand that times has changed things and the sport has evolved. That being said don't turn yourselves into the very people that climbers try to escape. You want to be better than others all the time go join the UFC and beat people up... Climbing is about your relationship with the rock not about being better than anyone, and if you think different your in this sport for the wrong reasons. I agree with Adam, and poor show on most of the rest of you guys... I really am sad to say I"m a climber after reading some of that stuff.. I used to look up to EFR before this post... p.s. grizzly paw for life... I never learned how to tie a figure 8

very cute derek. you'll grow out of it.

EDIT:
brigette's comment below has convinced me to delete this part of my post.

Derek: You're going to look back on this as one big "whoops."

I like you. You seem like a nice guy who's really trying to do some good in the world. You're also trying to learn as much about climbing as you can in as short a time as possible. More power to ya!

It sounds as though you've been listening to some of the more negative-minded folks around and have adopted their ideas about how climbing "is" and "should be", perhaps without personal experience of your own.

I'd caution you that, if you're going to pick a fight this big, you do it based upon your own well-developed, well-thought-out ideas. If you're going to publicly denigrate someone as well-respected as Eric, you'd better have a lot of conviction in what you're saying. You'll need it.

Best to you.

Derek... you did notice that "Cancel" button next to "Submit"... right ?

Brigette wrote:Derek: You're going to look back on this as one big "whoops." I like you. You seem like a nice guy who's really trying to do some good in the world. You're also trying to learn as much about climbing as you can in as short a time as possible. More power to ya! It sounds as though you've been listening to some of the more negative-minded folks around and have adopted their ideas about how climbing "is" and "should be", perhaps without personal experience of your own. I'd caution you that, if you're going to pick a fight this big, you do it based upon your own well-developed, well-thought-out ideas. If you're going to publicly denigrate someone as well-respected as Eric, you'd better have a lot of conviction in what you're saying. You'll need it. Best to you.

brigette, this is why i have so much respect for you. you've got a good head on your shoulders.

i think it's clear that derek is an inexperienced kid who doesn't know what he's gotten himself into. we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt on this one and chalk it off to him being green and naive.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
Oscar Wilde

Christian wrote:"I am not young enough to know everything." Oscar Wilde

I love that quote!

Derek, you are hilarious! Not to mention that you completely hi-jacked this thread and now poor Eric can't even get the input he is looking for. I am wondering if you somehow just totally misunderstood something he said.

The Boodge wrote:You know, I ran into you once, at Jailhouse a couple months ago. Your post reinforced my first impression of you - douchebag. You were the obvious noob that had his girlfriend anchored to the "belay" bolts at the bottom of some route, and when I offered an explanation of why that was a bad idea you just blew me off as someone that wasn't gonna tell you how to do things. You were the guys that brought a radio out there - I guess so you could develop your "relationship with the rock" by playing music to it. I, for one, am not impressed that you don't know how to tie a figure 8. Pretending to be "old school" when you've been climbing for a few months? Classy.

I'm going to take a stab at this one and say you didn't meet Derek based on the above. I'm about as good at reading people as you're going to find, I tend to open people up like a can of tuna and quickly. I don't know you or your ability to read people but if you're even slightly good at it you would not have gotten the vibe he's a douchebag. Derek is truly one of the best kids I know with as good of heart and intentions as they come.

I can't speak for him, the intentions behind his statements, his motivations for climbing or anything else. What I can say is he wasn't immature in expressing himself, didn't resort to calling people names and whether I agree with what he has said or not he did manage to stay grown up enough to express himself without calling anybody a "douchebag" affirming his impression of some different guy he met who had a girlfriend. I'm sure that'll go unnoticed while the "climbing posse" come to the defense of somebody well equipped to speak for himself but I would personally be disappointed in myself had I made your statements as I'm fairly sure you hammered it out without much thought about what you were say or if they guy you thought was Derek was really him.

Brent Silvester wrote:you don't want to be pissing off the EFR FA climbing posse, it's a big group.

Yeah, I'm well aware, I hear people making fun of the brown nosing and climbing cliques in Tucson pretty much all the time. The truth to me is this isn't between me and the comment wasn't about me so I wouldn't have cared enough to respond. I think the fact that so many are responding to something that if EFR is anything like me he would just ignore is odd.

Jimbo wrote:The next time you get to one of EFR's bolts (which will most likely be the very next time you climb on Mt. Lemmon) be sure not to clip it because you just can't look up to him anymore.

I'm pretty sure all he wants to do is trad climbing.

PS I HATE radios and climbing, A LOT! I would have no issue calling people that bring them climbing douchebags and I would call them even worse if they didn't turn them off when other climbers came along.

• DISCLAIMER*

I like to get outside, I like to climb, it's nice to put them together. The climbers I've met have all been great people, friendly, helpful, kind and so on with EFR being one of them willing to extend a hand. I'm thankful to the people that have spent hours out hiking around looking for lines and taking the time to put up new routes. With that said, I don't think I've met many people I feel like climb for the same reasons I do, I would rather just stay low key, do some climbing, know some good folks, give what I can back and leave it at that. As a whole, I don't like the vibe of the Tucson climbing community so I try to avoid it. I climb because I don't much like people so it's a good way of getting away from them. I guess it's like this in any hobby with so many opinions and views and so on but it just isn't my thing.

Derek didn't call anyone names, but he did make some pretty big assertions. Because we were discussing grades on an internet rock climbing forum, he decided that our motivations for climbing were less pure than his, and that we climb to be better than others. I can promise you that no one that I know who has posted to this thread climbs for the grades, or to be better than anyone. Do we try our hardest? Sure, and for some of us, that means we can occasionally climb 5.12. And maybe on a day when we can't climb, we casually discuss grades, as a total after thought. I am pretty sure that everyone who posted understands that any such discussion is truly meaningless in the larger scheme, and has nothing to do with our motivations for climbing. But because we see it as an interesting thought experiment while using an internet rock climbing forum, we are a bunch of egotistical number chasers?

Especially ridiculous because in the larger climbing world, 5.12+ sport climbing isn't even a blip on the radar screen. Anyone with an inflated ego from climbing 5.12 is headed for a pretty harsh reality check.

Hope you had a good afternoon out there yesterday, Adam.

EFR is no mountain God, its not his mountain... Boodge You were talking to my little brother, so get your facts straight. Want to adress me with something speak in person. I"ll say what I have to say right to your face. Guideline #1 don't be a jerk, and you call me a douchebag? By the way, I'm not scared of this big community you guys told me to be scared of. I"m not worried about how many climbers are in your group or how many of you there are. The fact is that you think your better than other people when your not a step ahead of anyone else. I have been climbing for 4 months and sent routes that have taken you years to complete. I saw you working sentenced , you had to hang at the first clip... I know how to tie a figure 8 you obviously are to hard headed to understand a joke...

And I like my music, so does my group... and if you have something to say about it, tell me on the crag when I"M in your face, not on the internet.

I don't regret the post I made, in fact I"m happy that it showed the true colors of this community. I'll keep having fun at the crag and I would like to see you guys try and stop me :) I'm not scared of your climbing posse haha , I hate posses

Jealousy is a stinky cologne

Derek Anderson wrote: I have been climbing for 4 months and sent routes that have taken you years to complete. I saw you working sentenced , you had to hang at the first clip

now who's interested in being better than other people?

I do think I'm the person that hijacked this thread with my misunderstanding of what EFR was saying though I don't feel too badly as I haven't seen a thread yet that stayed on topic.

The Boodge wrote: My ability to read people has been a part of my job for 18 years, so I'm fairly competent at it.

That's seriously impressive! 18 years at a job is insane! My ability to read people has allowed me to not have a job for 18 years but I'm also broke and I'm gonna so out on a limb and guess you aren't.

I will say EFR has gotten to do what he loves for a long time and I don't care what his motivations are. I'm going to guess they're part of a personal passion and we've been lucky enough to reap some benefits as it would be foolish to think he's the Mother Teresa of climbing.

With that said, me being in Eric's shoes I would be happy to see posts like Dereks as that isn't the place I would want to be at in the minds of others. I'm nobody and if in doing what I loved people decided to look up to me I wouldn't like it at all.

And with that, I'm gonna bow out of this thread so you guys can get back to fighting, defending EFR (while I hope he's climbing and I'm sure not thinking about it), using the least educated sounding words in your Lexicon or whatever else you (not all but more than one) decide to do to back up the very argument you're trying to defend.

Derek Anderson wrote: The fact is that you think your better than other people when your not a step ahead of anyone else. I have been climbing for 4 months and sent routes that have taken you years to complete.

HAHA, really? You accuse all of us of thinking we are better than others, when no one said like that, and there was absolutely no comparing of one person to another. Then you immediately brag about how you can climb harder than us after four months of climbing. Really?

Sorry, man, but no one in this thread has puffed their chest but you. There is no clique, we are not some posse roaming the mountain and trying to make others feel like gumbies. We respect those, like EFR, who have done so much to make Tucson a great place to climb. There is no "big community to be scared of", just a bunch of motivated people who occasionally climb together. Tucson has one of the most open and friendly climbing communities I've ever seen, sorry if you feel like people are trying to scare you away. I'm sure most of us would be happy to climb with you any time.

Derek:

You are spraying too much shit everywhere. The day you become .0001% of the climber that EFR is, I'll be walking on water. You make noise but say nothing.

haha no it doesnt say I"m better, it says that it just takes a lot of heart and determination to send routes... nothing more... I never wanted to get on sentenced don't fool yourself I was working Armed Robbery which I led clean the week after... Your threats are funny mr man, well see each other soon I"m sure :) Take care guys I'm going to enjoy the nice weather and beautiful mountain, Peace

Adam Block wrote:I do think I'm the person that hijacked this thread with my misunderstanding of what EFR was saying though I don't feel too badly as I haven't seen a thread yet that stayed on topic.

Ha! Yeah, I tried to get it back on track on the last page, but this train has officially derailed.

Derek - no offense man, but this is what happened. EFR started a discussion about grades. Everyone who posted had an implicit understanding that grades are a tool we can use to discuss relative difficulty of a climb, but in the end are meaningless and have little to no impact on why we climb or how much enjoyment we get out of climbing. The reason EFR was asking about 12+ is because during the era many of the sport routes on Lemmon were established, 12+ was nearing the limit of what was being climbed at the time. So many people climbing the harder routes (12+/13-'s) wanted to be a little conservative in their ratings, and would choose to give a climb a slightly lower grade. So many things that might be 12+ were given a lower rating, and we don't have many 12+s on the mountain. EFR was trying to see if people had any opinions on which climbs might fall into this category.

Is this an important discussion? Not really. Is it a valid discussion. Sure, especially on a rock climbing website, for people stuck inside wanting to talk climbing when they can't be outside doing it. No one compared their abilities to anyone else's, and no one implied that being a 5.12+ climber makes you a better person than anyone else. Had the title of the thread been "Why are there so few 12+s on Lemmon and why climbing 12+ makes me awesome", believe me, I would have called EFR or anyone else out on that one.

WOW. Seriously?

I cannot remember the last time I have been this speechless! I do not understand the motives or lack of rational thinking behind some of these posts.

Side note: Thank you so much to all the route developers out there! I am truly greatfull for all the hard work, time, and money that you have put into this activity we all love so much!

Red wrote:Thank you so much to all the route developers out there! I am truly greatfull for all the hard work, time, and money that you have put into this activity we all love so much!

Yes! I was thinking this same thing.

To all the route developers: some people do appreciate the time, work, money, effort, thought, and love you have put into the climbs you have established.

CALEB ANDERSON wrote:sounds like someones gonna get shot at the crag...pretty lame....EFR I know personally that my brother has nothing but great things to say about your routes, but as far as your posse goes? It's questionable at best to think that being concerned with confrontation is something of value to any of these threads. "Noah, I don't know what was said to your friend about my brother and I, but rest assure he is family and blood and I refuse to think a good soul as yourself was any cause such wrongful perception" This website was intended for climbers. Thank you to EVERYONE who put and puts routes up in Tucson, which is not limited to Efr.

caleb, this is not south central los angeles and climbers are not thugs. no one is going to get shot at the crags. no one has threatened any kind of violence. the only thing derek has to worry about now is that it's going to be harder to make friends with a lot of people because of what he said...which he doesn't seem to care about anyway since he's convinced everyone here is an egotistical asshole simply for discussing climbing grades.

also, THERE IS NO "EFR POSSE". there is no climber clique. pretty much everyone in southern arizona climbs with everyone else, and we all love meeting new climbers. eric himself LOVES new climbers and nearly everyone who climbs with him feels the same way. there may be a few small climbing cliques around tucson but if anytone thinks eric and his "posse" are in the business of excluding people from the "group", then he or she is just straight up clueless.

hell i'd climb with both of you guys. feel free to look me up if you ever need a partner. i don't expect you guys to be jumping to climb with me but the offer is sincere.