pawtuckaway anchors...the nuts and bolts

more and more im thinking that bolting with or without permission from the state will cause more problems than it solves...

Adam, Nhclimber
The plan isn't to bolt everything... add an anchor(s) where it might be need sure, but most of all talk about, as a group, if this needs to be done. As it stands upper cliff has already had two of its climbs defaced by chopped bolts... I and I believe everyone that's responding to this post is in agreement on that we don't want to see anymore of this at Pawtuckaway.
I'll agree with you Adam sling a tree, drop a nut/cam or what have you for a TR but at the same time some of the trees in the park are taking a beating (trees on lower slab are showing wear from TR anchors) or just shouldn't be used do to size.
Also throw in the fact gentlemen not everyone that goes to P-way to us the cliffs can lead climb or has the gear to build a gear anchor. For some it's there first time outside of the gym and getting into real world climbing or it's a school group or scout troop hanging out at the cliffs... The type and experience level of the people that use P-way is far greater then any other climbing area in the state (correct me if I'm wrong)

As for starting a group for Pway yeah I think it is a good idea we as climbers are out there more then the park/forest service traveling the trails and seeing what's going on, in what a lot of us call home.
Why not set a body up that could and would work hand in hand with Access Fund and the Park Services to do trail work, point out areas that are high traffic areas that need work, map out possible plans of action to deal with erosion, if need be make plans for the addition of bolt anchors, take note to changes in the tree conditions that we TR off of. There's more to this then just an issue of nuts and bolts...

This is our home; our play/training ground we do need to should step in & take care of it for the future climbers to come.

Gentlemen I respect your point of views and opinions, they are valid, I do hope to see you when this meeting takes place...

-Christopher

christohper wrote: Also throw in the fact gentlemen not everyone that goes to P-way to us the cliffs can lead climb or has the gear to build a gear anchor. For some it's there first time outside of the gym and getting into real world climbing or it's a school group or scout troop hanging out at the cliffs...

This has always felt like a slippery slope to me. Once we start "dumbing down" one area so that newer climbers, or climbers without certain gear, can top rope there with out learning essential skills, then what stops that argument from spreading to every cliff top. This is the same argument as with TDL.
As some one who had to go through the experience, I think being forced to make gear anchors or rig top ropes is one of the most educational phases of learning to climb, please don't take that away from folks. In regards to people who are having their first time climbing outside of a gym, I think they should either be confident enough to set up traditional TR anchors, or be with some one who is showing them how to. Putting in bolted anchors that some one can walk to on their first day climbing outside is asking for a little trouble.
Over all I think any addition of bolts to places like lower slab and upper cliff would be purely for convenience sake. The convenience, in my opinion, is not worth risking the potential repercussions, or taking away that necessary gear building experience.
-Erik

I think a few well placed and camouflaged bolts for anchoring lowers the impact on any area.

christohper wrote: As it stands upper cliff has already had two of its climbs defaced by chopped bolts...

P.S. Defaced by chopped bolts? or placed bolts?....chicken or the egg Chris... ;)

Kevin Keohan wrote:I think a few well placed and camouflaged bolts for anchoring lowers the impact on any area.

I'll second that.

The whole idea of people needing to make their own anchor for learning purposes is kind of dumb. One should know how to do that before even leaving the house.

You guys can get proper permission and have all the meetings in the world though and and some old school asshole with his own agenda will chop. Thats the "crap" that has happened here in CT.

Eric is spot on about learning to make anchors. I cut my teeth in p-way. All of my first leads, setting up terrible tr's and learning from my mistakes have made me into a proficient technical climber. Or if it is a school group or boyscouts they know they are there to tr and bring hundreds of feet of webbing and make crazy redundant systems. They aren't talking bolts and they would be the ones to benefit most from the installation.

I agree that p-way does attract a broad range of skill sets, but most people I see there even if inexperienced are perfectly safe or at least in the process of learning to be safe. I see more horror show belay techniques watching 'experienced' climbers bring up their seconds on Tropicana than watching someone struggle with their first lead on pete's tree on the lower slab.

mobley wrote: The whole idea of people needing to make their own anchor for learning purposes is kind of dumb.

I agree Mobley. But they don't! And if they know there are bolts then they won't even bother learning. I know, because That's how I was until I was forced to learn how to set up a TR, and I only wish that moment had come sooner as it would have helped me alot. And yes why that is personal, I know many peers who went through the same process.

Again, the bolts would be purely for convenience sake. I don't see them helping with impact that much as in this particular area people would still be tromping all over the top of the cliff to set up TR's on said bolts. And I agree, some ass hole would probably come chop them, so why even instigate when it's not that necessary.
-Erik

Aside from the whole anchors debate, I think a "Friends of P-way" would be great, for other reasons too. Trail work, developing a set of guidelines for the area. Something specific that comes to mind is a clean up of Devil's Den that place is trashed with fallen tree's and years of neglect with a dedicated group of people things like this could be fixed.

I think a group dedicated to the overall well being of P-way would be an excellent thing to start to express and actually take action on the things at P-way that could be improved.

matthewWallace wrote:Aside from the whole anchors debate, I think a "Friends of P-way" would be great, for other reasons too. Trail work, developing a set of guidelines for the area. Something specific that comes to mind is a clean up of Devil's Den that place is trashed with fallen tree's and years of neglect with a dedicated group of people things like this could be fixed. I think a group dedicated to the overall well being of P-way would be an excellent thing to start to express and actually take action on the things at P-way that could be improved.

i agree matt, i wouldn't want this group to be in place so we could get together from time to time just to argue about bolts... i was trying to think of other things for the group to help with and devils den is a perfect example... of course once we get it fixed up people will go out there and be all "aarrggg, BOLTS!... what do we dooooo... WWWAAARRRR!!!".... but for real matt... great idea trails and brush clean up would be awesome out there...

Bolts have been added here before and swiftly chopped before. What reason is there to think that anything will be different this time around? What compelling reason justifies having bolts at Pawtuckaway that will be lucky to last a month?

Once it can be guaranteed that those bolts will last, then maybe we can move on to whether they're even needed at all.

i tend to be a dreamer and ill admit the dream of making a conservation decision and having it stick with everyone is a bit naive... i for one plan to let the anchor thing rest though i think we could use it on a couple routes im seeing that they WILL be chopped if they went in... so they win again, bastards...

thanks to the internet we dont seem to need to get together to get no where on the anchor issue, we are doing fine on that here...

so here is a new question.... what would you like to see happen at pawtuckaway? personally id like to have a climbing police officer out there to keep the groups in line... but for real, imagine if we could educate folks on how to act at the cliffs that would be awesome... the clean up of devils den would be cool... well kept roads... fix the parking situation at the horse farm... clean up some of the forgotten cliffs... what do you think?

E thatcher wrote: I agree Mobley. But they don't! And if they know there are bolts then they won't even bother learning. I know, because That's how I was until I was forced to learn how to set up a TR, and I only wish that moment had come sooner as it would have helped me alot. And yes why that is personal, I know many peers who went through the same process. Again, the bolts would be purely for convenience sake.I don't see them helping with impact that much as in this particular area people would still be tromping all over the top of the cliff to set up TR's on said bolts. And I agree, some ass hole would probably come chop them, so why even instigate when it's not that necessary. -Erik

I know nothing about P'way but I do know when anyone talks about not liking "convenience" bolts I have to ask, when you go out of town to places like red Rocks/Yosemite/Zion etc. etc. do you make all of your own anchors and walk off and avoid all the "convenient" bolts someone put in for you to use? do you shit talk the person who put them in for you to use? I dont.

you guys should drill drill drill, using trees as anchors on popular climbs is bad/apathetic land management.

mobley wrote: I know nothing about P'way but I do know when anyone talks about not liking "convenience" bolts I have to ask, when you go out of town to places like red Rocks/Yosemite/Zion etc. etc. do you make all of your own anchors and walk off and avoid all the "convenient" bolts someone put in for you to use? do you shit talk the person who put them in for you to use?

Hey Mobley,
I try not to shit talk anybody, this is rock climbing after all. We're just a bunch of overgrown kids playing around on outdoor jungle gyms, nothing to get that crazy about.

As for convenience bolts in other areas. I have only climbed outside of NH in two locations, Adirondacks and Acadia and once in MA, so I am speaking with limited experiences. When I am climbing I will use convenience bolts because they are there. I respect those who take the hard way around it avoiding them, but I'm Lazy. BUT, that doesn't mean I've always supported them.

One instance was at Rose Ledge were I saw TR bolts in and next to cracks, literally IN A CRACK. The locals resorted to this instead of educating users about not using trees anymore (heard this from a local), and building gear anchors. In that situation I did voice my opinion, and I did avoid using them.
-Erik

I personally don't want to see anchors added to established climbs at any of the cliffs in p-way. At the time I don't think that they are necessary. Erosion is obviously a problem, but the groups bring a couple extra ropes and make it work. My friends and I run lead laps and so do alot of people I see out there. It would be a shame to see bolted anchors at a place with a long established history like p-way. The status quo has been in place long enough to be known by the general climbing community. If it's a new route, you make the choice. If not, it was somebody else's choice. I would love to see new routes go up in good style at some of the less travled cliffs.
But, building trail's and 'maintaining' areas that see so little travel that is only disturbing a beatiful setting. I love going to devil's den and climbing. It feels rugged and feels like you discover something new every time you trudge through the brush. Small walls, yellow wall, microwave, the dome, devil's den are always being 'discovered' by a new generation of climbers. I remember getting high and getting lost and 'finding' these cliffs with my buddies and just getting on climbs with no idea what lay in store. I would hate to see to see some of the adventure taken out of the place.

Okay maybe this post got started on the wrong subject about forming a climbing coalition for P-way...

Lee you are right in trying to come up with other ideas as to why we should form this group other than bolts... In early post I listed a bunch of things that we could do. But first, forget about the bolts, Let's decide if it's worth our energy and time to from a group to over see the welfare of the park, come up with a game plan on why we're doing this. This is step one before we even think of dreaming about putting a single new bolt into the cliffs.
Step two is getting the Pawtuckaway State park manger and the state of NH to recognize our group.
Step three sitting down with said person and talk about issues that we see in the park our plans of actions for said issues... As Lee, Matt and myself have listed off... Parking, trail work, developing a set of guidelines for the area, yes, even possible bolting and there's more if we sat down and talked as a group.

Once this happens then we can really talk about nuts and bolts if need be. An once we get recognized by the state of NH and the Park manger what we decide as a group and with the Park Manger become laws and he/she that breaks that law will pay if caught...

We as climbers are causing most of the damage out there how about we grow up and except this fact sit down as a body and figure out away to protect what's there and try to reverse the damage that is being done, if it can be.

It's a simple thing, like I said forget the bolts for two bloody minutes and think about things that you've seen at P-way should be addressed and so on.

Christopher, well said bolts is a small thing that is included in a larger discussion, now what does everyone think. I propose a question:

Do people think a "Friends of P-way" coalition to develop a set of regulations and/or guidelines?

This should be the new topic for the thread...

in talking with some friends of mine i found out that they have attempted to work with the park sevice on some things concerning pway climbing and they said that they didnt care much about the climbing issues in the park... they listened but didnt seem to care much for working with climbers... this sounds like one obstical to overcome if we try to form a group...

Whoa, this thread really took off since I last looked!

Anyways, I'd like to clarify my position a bit - I think its a great idea for a group of climbers that use p-way to come together and discuss the situation. There's far more to discuss than just anchor bolts - do we need a clean up day every year? Are there new undocumented routes to be shared? Etc, etc.

Hopefully, the bolting question can be addressed as "are there places with a genuine need for anchor bolts?" and not "where are all the places we can put bolts?". Still, I think that discussion is best left for a group discussion, as most threads of this type seem to quickly degrade into debacles like the now-infamous "CT/NY bolting ethics" thread.

- Chris

If anyone is interested in trying to get this group started I'll be setting up a meeting after the new year at Indoor Ascent in Dover... More info to follow.

I've been in touch with Access Fund, as well, and there will to work with us to get this group up and running as well as working with the State...

Christopher