.

.

I'm really not a fan of permadraws either. I realize that they make working a hard route more convenient, but should a hard route be convenient? The funny thing is that the routes we are talking about aren't even that difficult(although they would be for me).

I would also be curious to hear the reasoning from the person who installed them.

I'm not a big fan of chopping things already in place, but IMHO sounds like they should come down.

Doug

I visited the roost for the first time yesterday and was really surprised to see how many chains were hanging off the walls. I would agree that it's a real eyesore and in an area with a lot of non-climber traffic. I think the chains should be removed at least on the easier routes.

I have a set of project draws on Five Finger Discount (to the left of Great Train Robbery). These draws (nylon not chains) will be removed in the next few weeks if they have not already been removed/stolen by a local. I apologize for leaving them at the Roost if they have caused an eye sore.

For reference the chains have been on Los Banditos and GTR before June 08. When discussing these perma-draws why not comment on the fixed gear on Conny Loves Daddy, Highway Man, The Burgler and other harder routes?

Is the problem that these "easier" routes should not have permadraws while it is ok for harder routes to have fixed gear? This seems like a bit of a contradiction. Having fixed gear lowers commitment and allows people breaking into 5.11 to have the ability to try these routes and not worry about leaving gear if they cannot make it to the top.

If you are worried about the GTR and Los Banditos being too easy with fixed gear just step right or step left and there are plenty of harder routes to do.

If you do feel that it is necessary to remove these chains please leave the lower-offs (biners on the anchors) and the crux clip for Los Banditos. Even with a hanging draw the pre-crux clip is hard (tricky) and it helps to have the chain in place.

If you are really worried about the visual impact I think the best thing to do is go up and repaint all the chains and biners. This leaves the convenience of the permadraws but makes them less noticeable.

Cheers,

Luke

I am not a huge fan of fixed hardware in high visibility places, but I generally don't care at crags where only climbers go anyway. One of my local crags has a lot of fixed hardware and it doesn't bother me at all. That said, if there were fixed chains at many other areas that I frequent, I would be pissed and be all for taking them down. In other words, I really think it depends on the location...i.e. huge chains everywhere along a section of cliff that non-climbers hike along is probably a bad idea and kinda selfish on the part of the climbing community towards hikers who would like to enjoy looking at a non-chained up cliff.

BUT, this statement bugs me....

"2) These routes are basically the warm ups at The Roost and pose no problem whatsoever to clean. They are mostly vertical or at best gently overhanging."

Who gives a poop if they are the warmups? I bet there are "hard" routes that are not so terrible to clean that have chains on them also. Taking them down because they are not on a hard enough route is profoundly lame.

This happened at my local crag. Someone (not the first ascensionist) stole the chains off of the 10d "warmup", but left them on all of the other "hard projs'" down the way. This person deserves a kick in the chops.

Judge whether the draws need to be there based on other criteria than the difficulty or its egotistical and elitist.

From the Islands in the Sky guidebook (2001) - "Robber's Roost is a very public place. It is very popular with hikers and it's popularity will only increase with the increasing population of Vegas. Climbers are on show here. Be on your best behaviour. Keep the noise down and be mindful of people below you. Climbers have already shown a good example by cleaning up trash from partiers and erasing graffiti."

Eight years after the guidebook was published and the population of Vegas has indeed increased which means more people on the mountain as well as at Robber's Roost. Fixed draws at this spot are not in the best interest of the climbing community given the large number of non-climbers and certainly do more harm than good as some may see them as "trash" and no better than graffiti.

Better to leave fixed draws at locales less frequented by non-climbers as well as someplace steeper where cleaning them is more challenging. Regardless the grade if it's not a roof, cave or extremely overhanging you're just weak by not putting the draws on.

I don't really have any stake in this discussion but I wanted to just make one point:

Saying that a route is too easy or not steep enough to justify fixed draws is kind of a weak arguement. I am at least a year away from High 11s or 12s and so what I consider hard and worthy of fixed draws, someone who climbs 11s and 12s reguarlarly would not. However, that 5.13 project you are working on and feel its necessary to place draws might go easily for someone better than yourself. To tell someone that their project is not worthy while thinking yours is, is a complete contradiction.

EDIT: I see this kind of logic a lot in these type of discussions and it just bugs me. The idea that they are an eyesore is a completely different point to be evaluated. Climb Safe.

It deem strange to me that they were there. I like them--just simplifies the gear aspect of climbing so you can focus on the climbing aspect of climbing--isn't that the point of sport climbing?
But the lower biners had been stolen from some of them, which renders them useless.

The "they are an eyesore to nonclimbers" is speculative hogwash and isn't consistent with the reaction of nonclimbers that I've encountered. The nonclimbers I encounter (many) normally think the climbing/hardware is interesting, or at worst, don't care one way or the other. So if YOU don't like permadraws, that's fine, but don't get passive/aggressive and start talking about what nonclimbers like/don't like. (If the rangers don't like them, that's a different issue.)

Now fixed biners or the like on the anchors--those are really nice and I don't think anyone has a problem with them.

John McB--there is logic to having fixed draws on very steep routes, regardless of difficulty: draws are very hard to clean in the normal manner (lowering climber from anchors) from super steep routes.

I am wondering how many of the "gear is great, leave me alone, live and let live" posters were around the climbing scene back in the mid to late 1990's when the BLM and NPS cracked down on bolting because they started getting complaints and starting looking at things like bolting that they never had before. A few people who felt like they should be able to do whatever they wanted, caused the creation of a new set of rules by the BLM and NPS that we all now have to live with.
If the climbing community won't police itself, the government has already demonstrated that it will do so. "Those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."
Yeah it's a free country, but don't think putting gear up and leaving it there will never have an impact.
When in doubt take it down. The access you save will be all of ours.

I would have to agree with Ted on this one. If there is a question of a potential access problem vs. convenience, convenience loses ever time. When in doubt, take down fixed gear in high visibility places.

Mike thanks for the direct responses. I just wanted to make sure everything was being considered grade irrelevant.

If access is a concern then the draws should be removed no matter how inconvenient it is to clean the route.

"If there is a question of a potential access problem vs. convenience, convenience loses ever time. "

I agree fully. If taking off the perma draws will allow for more years of climbing at the roost then so be it.

I feel that most of the tourists are more impressed by the climbers than unhappy about the perma draws. There is evidence of spray painting and other eye sores at the roost that have been cleaned up by climbers. Sadly it only takes one angry tourist to make an issue.

Good Luck

I totally understand ur desire to remove the chains. I also understand the access restriction fear. I have always been a trad climber all my life so it bugs me when classic craigs are no longer accessible. But i went to Mt Charleston for the first time about 2 month ago, I can honestly appreciate having those chains there.

I am not strong enough to lead a 5.11 much less a 5.12 cleanly. Having those chains allows me to climb stuff i normally couldn't. And its making me stronger without going to a gym. So I know it sounds selfish, but i'm actually grateful to have them there. Would i want every place to be that way, Definitely NO. but if they are in some places, I wouldn't advocate removing them.

Also, a lot of the average and casual hiker don't mind the chains at all. Its the purist that do and as hikes go, this one isn't much of a hike, meant more for the casual hikers. But even if it was in an area that was for the more "serious" hikers, they shouldn't take that selfish viewpoint either. We all need to share the wilderness and there are plenty of prestine places for them to hike to. And yes, i know that there will be someone who will complain. But i'm tired of always trying to please everyone.

I don't get it? Why we're the permadraws put up in the first place? It's like placing bolts along a perfectly good crack line. It takes away the element of a good lead using your own gear. For those of us who can't climb much harder than 5.11 those climbs are challenging and to make them easier to lead takes away a degree of the challenge.

I guess it does not really matter when it comes to Sport Climbing.

Maybe they we're put up so someone can make the approach easier.

"You know to many quickdraws can wear you out man" HeHe:)

You guys are totally missing the point.

Having a few areas with the perma-draws is not a bad thing. If every area was done like that, then it would suxxxxx to no extreme. I am not advocating that, but it does make climbing enjoyable when certain places have these things. Deciding on grade or other criterion is stupid because who is to decide. Just because you don't like it, don't go there, i can point you to many areas in charleston with a lot of great routes that are clean bolted lines. Go there and stop bitching.

Now with regards to the other BS. I have been a trad climber all my life. I never understood why people would bolt a line instead of climb it freely. I still believe that if someone bolted a protectable line, they should chop the bolts off. Its only recently that i am beginning to understand sport climbing. I use to think that bolts were ugly and defaced the rock. And in my youth, I led 5.11 trad. I'm not talking about working a climb, but onsite leading it. Granted, its not pushing the envelop, but its respectable and i know what it is like to climbing harder stuff. And yea, a lot of the older routes had serious run outs because they believed that a route shouldn't have bolts in it. Just go to some of the old crags and u get these insane runouts. Should that be the criterion? Maybe you can do better, i don't know. The point is, if climber really want to climb and make an argument that its ugly or unnnatural or whatever, then forget bolting and climb free - trad climb. Yes i do know that areas like limestone could not be climbed unless it is bolted. My point is, stop bitching. Climbing is something that we can all enjoy if you set aside you're stupid notions on what pure climbing is.

Its like that chalk thing. If we extend any of these arguemnt, then you should stop using so much chalk. You make any outdoor route into a gym route with all the chalk u use. There is nothing uglier than having chalk mark up a face. Much worse than chains or bolts. So go climb inside... lol... Do you get my point. Climbing is something that everyone should enjoy. If you don't enjoy it, go someplace else.

And you are right, the top climbers don't hang chains, but they leave their quickdraws up while they work a route. Its rediculous the amount of preparation that goes into sending a route with these guys.

I feel like a broken record. Again, climbing is for everyone. If you don't like how certain areas are done, go somewhere else. There is way too much rock for anyone to complain about. Its silly and stupid. There is no one correct answer. That is the point i wanted to make.

peace.

I see, so what you are saying is that if we don't like it we can just go somewhere else? Nice.
Oh and don't worry the NPS and BLM will never come down hard on bolting and perma draws, they'd never do anything like that. Yeah never, that bolting ban in Red Rocks was just an arbitrary decision they came up with for no reason. It had nothing to do with sport climbers drilling recklessly and without regard to the impact they were making.
You are right about one thing. Some people just don't get it.
For those that can't tell, that is called sarcasm.

Things to think about...

Typically, people steal the biners on the first-third bolts so one has to hang their draws anyways.

People typically don't maintain the biners that are left leaving them sharp... I've seen ropes de-sheathed on falls due to this.

Cleaning/ hanging routes is part of the learning/ climbing experience.

I agree with Micheal... they are ugly.

and boys...

I'm an itty-bitty dainty girl... I hang my own draws and never leave em overnight. ;)

My 2 cents

I don't know if you have climbed the area in question, but the clips are in fine shape and can handle a fall. I think its up to every climber to assess the equipment. I do understand that you can't see microfracture and they do occur, but face it, how bad is the fall when each bolt is only 5 feet apart. So it blows, whoopi, i've fallen further and i've decked out climbing trad routes. Where is the real fear in falling on sport? I don't think we need to worry about a factor 2 fall anywhere expect on the first bolt.

So you think its ugly. Well i agree. But i also think its ugly to have all taht chalk on the wall as well. So should we ban chalk too? How about the bolts themselves. Coming for a long tradition of trad climbing, i think having bolts along a clean face is extremely ugly. Should i go further.

The point is, climbing is for everyone to enjoy, not just for you to decide what pure climbing is. If you want to argue anything, i can take that arguement to the extreme and the end result is, no one should climb anything. Well, maybe, because they now have that stuff you can apply on your hands to prevent them from sweating so you really don't leave much chalk behind.

You people keep on missing the point. if people just allow people to climb without complaining, we can all enjoy the rock. There are hundreds of places to climb. Go climb something and stop bitching. I was at that particular craig and there was a guy from LA who appreciated the chains because he didnt' have to worry about leaving gear behind. AND he was a very strong climber. Was able to onsite the 5.12's. He wasn't worried about the esthetics, all he wanted to do was enjoy the route.

Its not about the esthetics, its about enjoying the climb. If you insist on carrying your own gear, then do it. you don't ahve to clip the chains, there is plenty of space for you to go and bring your own clips. I'm just tired of people telling me what is "acceptable" and what isn't. What ever happened to just enjoy the climbing?

And i'm not advocating that you bolt routes that are protectable, as you probably know, its nearly impossible to protect limestone. So what's the big deal. Just go and enjoy the route. If you don't like it, bring your own draws. forget about using the chains. Its up to you.

billdlee, I've climbed a lot of limestone via trad protection. It is not impossible. When the face presents a challenge that can only be met safely with bolts then add bolts. When the route is too steep to clean safely, without a second following to clean, then add permadraws if you like.

I just want to add that if someone, climber or hiker, finds these particular permadraws "unacceptable", I wonder why it would reduce your fun? Are these yours?

Dear Billdlee,

Climbed at Roost yesterday...

-3 biners missing
-Replaced 1 very sharp biner
-I may not agree, but I do my part to contribute anyway
-not afraid of falling at all, but prefer to preserve my rope in case I fall as I am not wealthy.

You're welcome...

For note I removed my project draws from Five Finger Discount.

As Crista said the first 3 biners on Los Banditos are missing. The chains are still there.

I wish the locals best of luck for finding a "solution".

As I said before if there is an access issue, and I think most people will agree, the chains should go.

- Luke

I am not in favor of permadraws on routes that are easily cleaned while lowering or in a sensitive area where it might cause an access issue.

Hey Killis, I think we need a few more paragraphs to understand how you really feel.

Haven't been to Charleston. Have done first ascents and I have started using chaindraws. I do it because it is a bitch to clean a route that overhangs or angles sharply away from the anchors. Call me lazy. I added have draws to old routes and I am guessing most of the guys that did the FA's Killis mentioned would too if they still climb. I only add them if cleaning them is a real pain in the butt. One also had a safety issue when you pulled the last draw or two it was possible to swing into a rock. The angled routes generally only have one or two draws so you can clip them on the lower and be able to clean the bottom of the route more easily. As far as visual impact goes we camo paint them. I think they are less of an eyesore than colored nylon draws with Petzl in giant letters (ala Sharma and a lot of those other great climbers in the videos) that hang for months. If the the FS, or BLM complain then we could arrange to take them down at the end of each season thus they are not permadraws.

I once pointed out (she couldn't see them) to an FS biologist the chain anchors (shouldn't have them if it just makes getting down easy) at the tops of many pinnacles and explained why they are there and how we no longer had to look at old slings every where. Seemed like a good idea to her after I explained why they are there.

Hope you all work it out up there. Now get back to those sit ups Killis.